Defeat rate across monasteries?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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lavantien
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Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by lavantien »

I wonder if there is a statistic about defeat/give up rate among Buddhist monasteries across the world?
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by DNS »

lavantien wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:28 pm I wonder if there is a statistic about defeat/give up rate among Buddhist monasteries across the world?
I'd be curious to hear what the stats are too. I imagine, it's not as high as we might think. We tend to hear about the defeats or the leaving of the monkhood by this or that monk, but I imagine most stay the course for the long haul.

In one of Ven. Dhammika's books, he said that of those who disrobe, about one-third of those do so for reasons of lust, wanting a female partner in the lay life; about one-third for feelings of not making much progress; and one-third for possible defeat offenses. Note; these are the percentages of the total that disrobe, not all of those who ordain.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by TRobinson465 »

lavantien wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:28 pm I wonder if there is a statistic about defeat/give up rate among Buddhist monasteries across the world?
Are you talking about monks who simply disrobe? If so id imagine Sri lankan monasteries have the lowest since it is a cultural taboo to disrobe at all. While monastaries in thailand would be relatively high due to short term ordinatoin being a norm there. Burma cambodia and laos probably somewhere between the two. Dont think individual monastaries keep stats tho.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by sunnat »

talked to a monk from a monastery about this.

People who come from the country the monastery is in have a retention, beyond 2 years, rate of 30 %. Foreigners have a higher retention rate. This is based on from anagarika onwards. Bikkhunis tend to stay on much more.

For example Ajahn Brahm has ordained something like 100 and about 30 of those are still monks.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by lavantien »

TRobinson465 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:49 am Are you talking about monks who simply disrobe?
Disrobe as well as expelled (parajika) too
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
User13866
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by User13866 »

Iirc, I heard that it's upwards of 80% dropout rate after 1st year and about 95% over 5 years. Might be wrong but i think someone shared these stats for TFT, whether it included samaneras idk.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by Johann »

One can expect that 90% of those met in this realm are actually already out. How ever, the majority, not compare-able don't even come till border areas, are not at all able to even temporary leave the house, althought not having other obstacles then gross defilements, holding firm on stand.

Usually they somehow prefer to rejoice by statements for outsider and work hard toward the direction to cut them totally off.

Isn't it amazing how people caught in their prisons of craving, views and stand prefer to pull Sublime down rather to seek for refuge outside their domain?

People gather together on an element, and because falling for that neither leading toward sublime, nor for what's beyond, they stay bond in their ways of wandering on.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by Bhikkhu Ariyananda »

I would see this in a different light

"Whatever" time one spends in robes is a gain :) for that individual

but what we need to do is

"never be concerned on the omissions and commissions of others rather be concerned of your own omissions and commissions in Dhamma"
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by Red Belly »

Kiranraj.bodhi wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:27 pm I would see this in a different light

"Whatever" time one spends in robes is a gain :) for that individual

but what we need to do is

"never be concerned on the omissions and commissions of others rather be concerned of your own omissions and commissions in Dhamma"
Very well said.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by SarathW »

sunnat wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:17 am talked to a monk from a monastery about this.

People who come from the country the monastery is in have a retention, beyond 2 years, rate of 30 %. Foreigners have a higher retention rate. This is based on from anagarika onwards. Bikkhunis tend to stay on much more.

For example Ajahn Brahm has ordained something like 100 and about 30 of those are still monks.
70% dropout!!
I just surprised.
Is this because they are temporary ordained?
I think we have to take the people out of this as they can't be labelled as dropout or defeated.
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Post by sunnat »

I don’t know. There is a curiosity about the general retention rate and the little bit of statistics provided may help the op.
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Re: Defeat rate across monasteries?

Post by User13866 »

User13866 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:18 am Iirc, I heard that it's upwards of 80% dropout rate after 1st year and about 95% over 5 years. Might be wrong but i think someone shared these stats for TFT, whether it included samaneras idk.
I remembered it wrong. Found the old thread viewtopic.php?t=28037
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