Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
jinic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by jinic »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:59 pm Infinities are odd. If you spend half a minute recalling one past life, then half of half a minute recalling the next, then half of half of half of a minute recalling the next, ad infinitum, you would have performed infinite recollections, infinite, recalling infinite past lives, all within the space of a minute. You can do the same thing with a second.
This isn't right. You can't divide space-time ad infinitum. Zeno's paradox etc. Good try tho.

In other words you can recall with infinite speed, speed cannot be infinite, it's always finite in physics.
Last edited by jinic on Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

In the Achilles Paradox, Zeno assumes that distances and durations are infinitely divisible in the sense of having an actual infinity of parts, and he assumes there are too many of these parts for the runner to complete. These are not sound assumptions when dealing with "infinity" under the stipulations you originally imposed.

Better luck next time!

Also, it's probably best not to attack the Dhamma-understandings of others based on these parlor tricks with numbers.

Lastly, these are psychic recollections described as "supernormal." Why would physical speed have to apply to them?

:juggling:
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
jinic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by jinic »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:04 pm In the Achilles Paradox, Zeno assumes that distances and durations are infinitely divisible in the sense of having an actual infinity of parts, and he assumes there are too many of these parts for the runner to complete. These are not sound assumptions when dealing with "infinity."

This is exactly what you did as i understand it. You assume that you can divide a minute ad infinitum and have a recall be performed infinitely fast.
If you spend half a minute recalling one past life, then half of half a minute recalling the next, then half of half of half of a minute recalling the next, ad infinitum, you would have performed infinite recollections, infinite, recalling infinite past lives, all within the space of a minute.
This is of course not physics.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
jinic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by jinic »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:04 pm In the Achilles Paradox, Zeno assumes that distances and durations are infinitely divisible in the sense of having an actual infinity of parts, and he assumes there are too many of these parts for the runner to complete. These are not sound assumptions when dealing with "infinity" under the stipulations you originally imposed.

Better luck next time!

Also, it's probably best not to attack the Dhamma-understandings of others based on these parlor tricks with numbers.

Lastly, these are psychic recollections described as "supernormal." Why would physical speed have to apply to them?

:juggling:
I think you are rude calling it 'parlor tricks' and i don't even want to talk to you more. If you want to pick my brain ever again, pay me handsomely and i will consider it.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I was mid-edit when you replied. I'll finish it here to not make the thread more confusing.

Yes, but we are referring to a supernormal cognition of infinity. The Buddha recalls his past lives.

Sure, maybe he only recalled "some," but that's not really what the texts say. He recalled his past lives and knew that there was no beginning to be found among them. In order for him to know this, he would need a knowledge of the infinity that is "the past." If it is disputed that the Buddha knew all of his past lives, then that's that, but that also renders his teaching of "no first point" as a speculative prapañca on his part.

You think I'm rude because I think number games with infinity are parlor tricks? Cry me a river. You're rude for insulting others' Dhamma-understandings based on such tricks.

So when infinity is read into something finite, such as the distance to complete a marathon or the duration of a minute, this isn't sound. But when infinity itself is what is cognized, then an infinite speed of cognition is required. The limits of the cognition of a Buddha are inconceivable, likely for this very reason.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
jinic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by jinic »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:17 pm I was mid-edit when you replied. I'll finish it here to not make the thread more confusing.

Yes, but we are referring to a supernormal cognition of infinity. The Buddha recalls his past lives.

Sure, maybe he only recalled "some," but that's not really what the texts say. He recalled his past lives and knew that there was no beginning to be found among them. In order for him to know this, he would need a knowledge of the infinity that is "the past." If it is disputed that the Buddha knew all of his past lives, then that's that, but that also renders his teaching of "no first point" as a speculative prapañca on his part.

You think I'm rude because I think number games with infinity are parlor tricks? Cry my a river. Your rude for insulting others' Dhamma-understandings based on such tricks.

So when infinity is read into something finite, such as the distance to complete a marathon or the duration of a minute, this isn't sound. But when infinity
I have very good answers for this. It'll cost you 500$ per word. PM me if interested, i might make you a discount.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Obviously I'm not interested in paying a troll any bit of money. How desperate for interaction over the Internet do you think I am? Take your solicitation elsewhere, please. I don't need it directed at me.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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Sam Vara
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

jinic wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:51 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:40 pm
jinic wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:17 am
Even if you could recall at any finite speed, you would exhaust your lifespan before reaching the beggining. Why? Because from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. 

Either way, don't take my word for it. Not that i think you would take my word for it.
I would be happy to take your word for it, but in this sub-section your word would need to be backed up by the authorities listed in the guidelines. There is an earlier reference to SN 56.31, but that doesn't really support the point. Nor does SN 15.13, unless I have missed any intended inference. There is an apparent link in the Sotāpattisaṁyutta between jhana (or at least samadhi) and stream entry, but that's about as far as I can get with this one.
When you don't understand the Dhamma enough to answer that rather basic question then you are surely missing the intended inference.

Anyway, it's my mistake trying to explain things to someone who has already been well instructed yet remains confused about the basics.

I am sorry you don't know which is greater and i can only offer my sincere commiserations.
Thanks, it's appreciated. :anjali:
jinic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by jinic »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:43 pm Thanks, it's appreciated. :anjali:
You are so polite good sir. I was hestitant to call it basic and i hope it doesn't offend you.

Should you have doubt about whether it's possible to attain jhana in a dispensation without stream entry, there is this
The Blessed One pointed out the young female pig to Ànandã and said, "See that young female pig? She was a young woman in human existence during the dispensation of Kakusanda Buddha. When she died, she was reborn a hen in the neighbourhood of a monastic feeding hall. The small hen fell victim to an eagle. But earlier she happened to have heard the recitation by a yogi Buddhist monk of a meditation subject which aroused in her wholesome thoughts. By virtue of these merits, the small hen was reborn as a princess named Ubbari in a royal family. The princess Ubbari later left the household life and became a wandering mendicant. Residing in the mendicants' residence she happened one day to gaze at the maggots in the latrine. The worms served as an object for meditation (contemplation of ugliness of worm-infested corpse or contemplation of a white object) by which she attained the first jhãna. When she passed away, she was reborn a Brahma in the first jhãnic Brahma world. On expiry from the Brahma world, she became the daughter of a rich man in the human world which she left again only to be born a pig now. I saw all these events which made me smile."
http://www.buddhanet.net/wheeld05.htm
I will refrain from trying to explain that this has happened an uncountable amount of times tho.

Either way i hope this story shakes up anybody who thinks that merely being even a monastic and having jhana makes a stream-enterer. It's not explicit whether Ubbari was or wasn't claiming Buddha Kakusanda as her teacher but i think it's very likely.

I think many people are like this, have jhana in a dispensation but don't finish the task.
It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'[12]

5. "It may be that after the stilling of thought conception and discursive thinking, he gains the inner tranquillity and harmony of the second absorption that is free of thought-conception and discursive thinking, born of concentration and filled with rapture and joy; and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'

6. "It may be that after the fading away of rapture, the monk dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly aware, and he experiences a happiness in his body of which the Noble Ones say: 'Happily lives he who dwells in equanimity and is mindful!' — that third absorption he wins; and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'

7. "It may be that with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters upon and abides in the fourth absorption, which is beyond pleasure and pain and has purity of mindfulness due to equanimity; and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'

8. "It may be that, with the entire transcending of perceptions of corporeality,[13] with the disappearance of perceptions of sense-response,'[14] with non-attention to perceptions of variety,[15] thinking: 'Space is infinite,' some monk enters upon and abides in the sphere of infinite space; and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'peaceful abidings.'

9. "It may be that by entirely transcending the sphere of infinite space, thinking: 'Consciousness is infinite,' some monk enters and abides in the sphere of infinite consciousness; and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'peaceful abidings.'

10. "It may be that by entirely transcending the sphere of infinite consciousness, some monk enters and abides in the sphere of nothingness; and he then might think: I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'peaceful abidings.'

11. "It may be that, by entirely transcending the sphere of nothingness, some monk enters and abides in the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble one's discipline they are called 'peaceful abidings.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
As to the infinity of past lives and how to think about it. Ven. NgXinZhao (Bhante Paññādhammika), Ven Khemaratho, and I, have been explaining it here a while ago https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/in ... m/22381/25
I don't know anybody other than these two monks who can say anything worthwhile on this matter. I've improved the way i explain these things since and if you want i'll try to clear things up.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

jinic wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:43 pm Thanks, it's appreciated. :anjali:
You are so polite good sir. I was hestitant to call it basic and i hope it doesn't offend you.
Were you trying to offend me? And whence the current hope? Have you now changed your mind and hope that offence wasn't taken even if intended?
Should you have doubt about whether it's possible to attain jhana in a dispensation without stream entry....Either way i hope this story shakes up anybody who thinks that merely being even a monastic and having jhana makes a stream-enterer.
Do you think that I have claimed that someone who experiences jhana is a sotapanna, or irrevocably destined to be one? That's what you appear to be saying here, but I don't think I've said anything like that. I'm happy to rehearse the stages of our short dialogue to explain my position, if that's what you want.
jinic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by jinic »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:20 pm Were you trying to offend me? And whence the current hope? Have you now changed your mind and hope that offence wasn't taken even if intended?
Wasn't trying to offend. I even thought about it before posting and assumed you wouldn't be offended because of the sentiment you expressed in a thread recently where 'not understanding' was discussed.

Only thought about it being offensive because the magical-thinking-guy said i was ''attacking the Dhamma-understandings of others''
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:20 pm Do you think that I have claimed that someone who experiences jhana is a sotapanna, or irrevocably destined to be one?
Ι δοντ τηινκ σο
That's what you appear to be saying here, but I don't think I've said anything like that. I'm happy to rehearse the stages of our short dialogue to explain my position, if that's what you want
You never explained the hestitancy beyond saying there wasn't enough for you to draw from. I posted texts relevant to making the inference. Αs you can see i prefaced it by 'Should you have doubt about..' and apparently you don't have doubt about that possibility.

Thus apparently the issue is a matter of comprehending the particulars of and it's implications.

I think that seeing & knowing these immeasurables & uncountabilities is beautiful and comprehending them is very pleasant. I don't think infinities are odd and just want to help others see it.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

jinic wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:25 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:20 pm Were you trying to offend me? And whence the current hope? Have you now changed your mind and hope that offence wasn't taken even if intended?
Wasn't trying to offend. I even thought about it before posting and assumed you wouldn't be offended because of the sentiment you expressed in a thread recently where 'not understanding' was discussed.

Only thought about it being offensive because the magical-thinking-guy said i was ''attacking the Dhamma-understandings of others''
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:20 pm Do you think that I have claimed that someone who experiences jhana is a sotapanna, or irrevocably destined to be one?
Ι δοντ τηινκ σο
That's what you appear to be saying here, but I don't think I've said anything like that. I'm happy to rehearse the stages of our short dialogue to explain my position, if that's what you want
You never explained the hestitancy beyond saying there wasn't enough for you to draw from. I posted texts relevant to making the inference. Αs you can see i prefaced it by 'Should you have doubt about..' and apparently you don't have doubt about that possibility.

Thus apparently the issue is a matter of comprehending the particulars of and it's implications.
Ah, OK. It would be best if you clearly stated the inference that I am expected to draw. But (as I said before) this is the Classical Theravada section, and it might be better to start a new thread elsewhere. :anjali:
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by asahi »

If the understanding is correct and having right method that is not superhard to attain stream entry .
Peace is more precious than triumph
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

In the following video, Venerable Premasiri said that Jhana is inferior to Nibbana.
So attaining Jhana seems easier than attaining Nibbana.
I am not sure whether the same applies to Stream-entry too.
Perhaps eliminating self-view may not be easy for some.
:shrug:

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:41 am In the following video, Venerable Premasiri said that Jhana is inferior to Nibbana.
So attaining Jhana seems easier than attaining Nibbana.
I am not sure whether the same applies to Stream-entry too.
Perhaps eliminating self-view may not be easy for some.
:shrug:
Er…. Looks like he is mistaken. If there is No jhana (samma samadhi), then there will be no Nibbana. Just look at MN 52 and many others.

Unless he is referring to fake jhana, but he should be very careful when he explain it. Because jhana (samma samadhi) is part of N8FP.

O btw, jhana (samma samadhi) is difficult even during Buddha time. One may try to practice samma samadhi, but never able to reach and maintain it for 24/7.

Maintaining ekagata is difficult because one needs all faculties to fully developed.

One more thing: if someone say they don’t follow N8FP to reach Nibbana, just reject them. It will be waste of time.

Good luck.
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May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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