IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Eko Care
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IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

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About
The International Institute of Theravada is a monk training established with the objective of grooming and capacitating the Buddhist monk who is capable in:
- 𝗔𝘁𝘁𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘂𝗹𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗲𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗡𝗶𝗿𝘃𝗮̄𝗻̣𝗮
- 𝗚𝘂𝗶𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝘀 (𝗯𝗼𝘁𝗵 𝗰𝗹𝗲𝗿𝗴𝘆 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗹𝗮𝗶𝘁𝘆) 𝗶𝗻 𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘂𝗹𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗲𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗡𝗶𝗿𝘃𝗮̄𝗻̣𝗮
- 𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗴𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝗮̄𝘀𝗮𝗻𝗮 𝗯𝘆 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝗰𝘁𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗱𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗶𝗽𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 (𝗩𝗶𝗻𝗮𝘆𝗮 𝗞𝗮𝗺𝗺𝗮𝘀) 𝗮𝗰𝗰𝗼𝗿𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗲𝘅𝗮𝗰𝘁 𝘁𝗲𝗮𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝗳 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗕𝘂𝗱𝗱𝗵𝗮.


𝐅𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬
A group of competent monk-disciples (who have completed Theravada Buddhist education in Myanmar and exposed to different traditions in Thailand and elsewhere) of the Late Most Venerable Nā-Uyane Ariyadhamma Mahāthera, the vice president of the Śrī Rāmañña Mahānikāya and the Supreme Head of the Śrī Kaḷyāṇī Yogāśrama Saṃsthā, and also affiliated to the well-known Nā-Uyana Forest Monastery, Malsiripura, has already commenced some initial work in establishing IIT at Karuwalagaswewa, Sri Lanka with the blessings and guidance of senior Mahātheras of both Rāmañña Mahānikāya and Amarapura Mahānikāya.
https://www.facebook.com/International. ... Theravada/

This institute is currently getting more and more popular, specially among forest monks, due to the competency of the teacher monks there.

https://www.youtube.com/c/IITInternatio ... /playlists
https://www.theravado.com/
+94 76 037 0189
[email protected]
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SDC
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

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Sounds militant. What efforts are being made to teach these monks to develop virtue (without holding to it as mere duty), effacement, shame, fear of wrongdoing, seeing danger in the slightest fault, to oppose covetousness, to develop their individuality in Dhamma, etc.?
AN 3.65 wrote:Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’ But when, Kālāmas, you know for yourselves: ‘These things are unwholesome; these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; these things, if accepted and undertaken, lead to harm and suffering,’ then you should abandon them.
Are these monks ever going to think independently of this institution’s agenda?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Eko Care
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

Post by Eko Care »

SDC wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:13 pm
AN 3.65 wrote:Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, ...
How do you interpret Kalama sutta?

Kālāma sutta is only to be applied for Lobha-dosa-moha?
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SDC
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

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Eko Care wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:33 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:13 pm
AN 3.65 wrote:Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, ...
How do you interpret Kalama sutta?

Kālāma sutta is only to be applied for Lobha-dosa-moha?
Yes, the sutta does speak about greed, hate and delusion, and the point is to evaluate why those three things are unwholesome (and why the counterparts are wholesome) instead of just believing what is said:
What do you think, Kālāmas? Are these things wholesome or unwholesome?”—“Unwholesome, Bhante.”—“Blameworthy or blameless?”—“Blameworthy, Bhante.”—“Censured or praised by the wise?”—“Censured by the wise, Bhante.”—“Accepted and undertaken, do they lead to harm and suffering or not, or how do you take it?”—“Accepted and undertaken, these things lead to harm and suffering. So we take it.”

Thus, Kālāmas, when we said: ‘Come, Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition … But when you know for yourselves: “These things are unwholesome; these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; these things, if undertaken and practiced, lead to harm and suffering,” then you should abandon them,’ it is because of this that this was said.
Are you suggesting greed, hate and delusion don’t cover the scope of unwholesome?

My concern about this institution is that you aren’t teaching monks to evaluate these matters on their own. As you said, you’re “grooming” and “capacitating” them in a direction you’ve predetermined.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Eko Care
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

Post by Eko Care »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm Yes, the sutta does speak about greed, hate and delusion, and the point is to evaluate why those three things are unwholesome (and why the counterparts are wholesome) instead of just believing what is said:
If so, that method is about recognizing defilements as defilements and wholesome as wholesome.
But not for other things such as:
  • Challenging facts mentioned in Suttas (eg: number of heavens are six etc.)
  • Inventing new Interpretation of Suttas
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm Are you suggesting greed, hate and delusion don’t cover the scope of unwholesome?
No.
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm My concern about this institution is that you aren’t teaching monks to evaluate these matters on their own.
Didn't you read the 1st point mentioned in the link given on Kalamasutta, that says Kalama sutta is not for Buddhists?
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm As you said, you’re “grooming” and “capacitating” them in a direction you’ve predetermined.
Furthermore this grooming is not about directing to misrecognize kilesas. It is about facilitating for monks life.
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SDC
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

Post by SDC »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:44 am
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm Yes, the sutta does speak about greed, hate and delusion, and the point is to evaluate why those three things are unwholesome (and why the counterparts are wholesome) instead of just believing what is said:
If so, that method is about recognizing defilements as defilements and wholesome as wholesome.
But not for other things such as:
  • Challenging facts mentioned in Suttas (eg: number of heavens are six etc.)
  • Inventing new Interpretation of Suttas
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm Are you suggesting greed, hate and delusion don’t cover the scope of unwholesome?
No.
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm My concern about this institution is that you aren’t teaching monks to evaluate these matters on their own.
Didn't you read the 1st point mentioned in the link given on Kalamasutta, that says Kalama sutta is not for Buddhists?
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 pm As you said, you’re “grooming” and “capacitating” them in a direction you’ve predetermined.
Furthermore this grooming is not about directing to misrecognize kilesas. It is about facilitating for monks life.
Hi Eko Care,

The Kalamasutta is for anyone investigating greed, hate and delusion. Seems to me that anyone trying to develop right view would benefit from the advice to not simply listen to those who come along and speak. Sure, the Kalamas were not yet disciples, but that doesn’t imply the advice is inapplicable to those who think the already are. Further, any of us may be able to dictate the content of sutta, but it is a whole other matter to investigate the meaning. Seems to me that droves of so-called Buddhists could benefit from such investigations, which was the entire reason I brought that sutta into this discussion.

All in all, I just hope this organization has the best interests of the new monastics in mind. It would be a shame to gather up unsuspecting young people in a broader movement to centralize and/or nationalize the manner in which the Dhamma is delivered. I suggest you adjust the language in the promotional material to appear less insidious.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

Post by User13866 »

I think it is a good initiative overall but i don't like the curriculum.
𝐌𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐓𝐡𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐜 𝐅𝐨𝐜𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐬
1. Central Focus – Literature and meditation techniques preserved under the Theravāda tradition.
a. Tipiṭaka (canon),
b. Aṭṭhakathā (commentaries),
c. Tīkā (sub-commentaries),
d. Treatises complied by well-renowned Buddhist scholars, and
e. Meditation techniques introduced in the literature and also by celebrated Buddhist masters.
2. Peripheral Focus – Secondary focus is the branches of secular knowledge such as psychology, philosophy and information about other Buddhist sects (Mahayana etc.) and diverse religions and cultures. And attention is also given in developing benign talents such as preaching, literal and social skills that are crucial to achieve aforesaid goals.

https://www.facebook.com/International. ... Theravada/
All the bolded stuff is not the word of the Buddha but the the work of outsiders, words of disciples, and I don't see any time being dedicated to developing critical analysis worthy of a Vibhajjavadin [One who analyzes].

How about teaching people to cross-reference commentaries with texts known to be true [canon] rather than uncritically expanding the canon by thousands of pages? Id say why not but i leave it here.

As it says:
Literature and meditation techniques preserved under the Theravāda tradition
If someone wants to be a "Traditional Theravadin of the 21st century", well trained in bombast & the words of disciples, words of outsiders, then by all means, this looks like the perfect course.
"Monks, there are these two assemblies. Which two? The assembly trained in bombast and not in cross-questioning, and the assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast.

"And which is the assembly trained in bombast and not in cross-questioning?

"There is the case where in any assembly when the discourses of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are recited, the monks don't listen, don't lend ear, don't set their hearts on knowing them; don't regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in expression, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering. Yet when they have mastered that Dhamma, they don't cross-question one another about it, don't dissect: 'How is this? What is the meaning of this?' They don't make open what isn't open, don't make plain what isn't plain, don't dispel doubt on its various doubtful points. This is called an assembly trained in bombast, not in cross-questioning.

"And which is the assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast?

"There is the case where in any assembly when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited, the monks don't listen, don't lend ear, don't set their hearts on knowing them; don't regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when the discourses of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering. And when they have mastered that Dhamma, they cross-question one another about it and dissect it: 'How is this? What is the meaning of this?' They make open what isn't open, make plain what isn't plain, dispel doubt on its various doubtful points. This is called an assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
However if one wants to train in cross-reference according to the Four Mahapadesa, then It's probably not the place to go imho
“Mendicants, what are the four great references?

Take a mendicant who says: ‘Reverend, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the monastic law. If they’re not included in the discourses and found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that mendicant.’ And so you should reject it.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘Reverend, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the monastic law. If they are included in the discourses and found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by that mendicant.’ You should remember it. This is the first great reference.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery lives a Saṅgha with seniors and leaders. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that Saṅgha: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses or found in the monastic law. If they’re not included in the discourses or found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that Saṅgha.’ And so you should reject it.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery lives a Saṅgha with seniors and leaders. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that Saṅgha: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses or found in the monastic law. If they are included in the discourses and found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by that Saṅgha.’ You should remember it. This is the second great reference.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there are several senior mendicants who are very learned, knowledgeable in the scriptures, who remember the teachings, the monastic law, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of those senior mendicants: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses or found in the monastic law. If they’re not included in the discourses or found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by those senior mendicants.’ And so you should reject it.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there are several senior mendicants who are very learned, knowledgeable in the scriptures, who remember the teachings, the monastic law, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of those senior mendicants: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the monastic law. If they are included in the discourses and found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by those senior mendicants.’ You should remember it. This is the third great reference.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned and knowledgeable in the scriptures, who has memorized the teachings, the monastic law, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the monastic law. If they’re not included in the discourses or found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ And so you should reject it.

Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned and knowledgeable in the scriptures, who has memorized the teachings, the monastic law, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the monastic law, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they’re included in the discourses and found in the monastic law. If they are included in the discourses and found in the monastic law, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ You should remember it. This is the fourth great reference.

These are the four great references.”
I also don't like the "advertising" with promise of Nibbana.
capacitating the Buddhist monk who is capable in:
- 𝗔𝘁𝘁𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘂𝗹𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗲𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗡𝗶𝗿𝘃𝗮̄𝗻̣𝗮
- 𝗚𝘂𝗶𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝘀 (𝗯𝗼𝘁𝗵 𝗰𝗹𝗲𝗿𝗴𝘆 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗹𝗮𝗶𝘁𝘆) 𝗶𝗻 𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘂𝗹𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗲𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗡𝗶𝗿𝘃𝗮̄𝗻̣𝗮
This comes of as a marketing initiative.

Similarly some Theravada traditions will hand brochures to people looking to ordain saying 'it takes a few years to attain Nibbana' (so i've seen with my own eyes), that in a tradition where the Mahaguru will order extermination of insects to preserve a lifeless building (so i've heard)...
User13866
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Re: IIT Monk Training Center - Facebook Page

Post by User13866 »

In my opinion it takes about 7-10+ years to master sutta and that is if one has unlimited on demand access to all of the texts, translations, and a lot of people keen on discussion & learning (like the assembly here on the internet). If someone told me that they were going to master Sutta and Commentary in 5 years, i would not believe that it's possible.
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