Exactly… including annihilation
'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Annihilation of what? Beings are only a convention, a collection of aggregates.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
So it's release from the cycle of birth and death. But that doesn't mean eternal life, or eternal existence, or whatever.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Here is parallel , lets see what it says .
https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho
云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。
Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho
云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。
Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
It seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.asahi wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:42 am Here is parallel , lets see what it says .
https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho
云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。
Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Interesting that it says “Nothingness”. You also see this sometimes in the parallels regarding the 3 special samadhis. Instead of Signless, Emptiness and Desireless you sometimes get Signless, Emptiness and Nothingness.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:11 amIt seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.asahi wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:42 am Here is parallel , lets see what it says .
https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho
云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。
Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Which is why it's important to stick the Pali. Translating terms into Chinese, 'Emptiness' and 'nothingness' easy to confuse.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:33 amInteresting that it says “Nothingness”. You also see this sometimes in the parallels regarding the 3 special samadhis. Instead of Signless, Emptiness and Desireless you sometimes get Signless, Emptiness and Nothingness.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:11 amIt seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.asahi wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:42 am Here is parallel , lets see what it says .
https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho
云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。
Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
Perhaps you should stick with the Chinese canons to support your nihilism and eternal death vision of nibbana.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
I think the translators of the Chinese cannon were skilled enough to tell the difference. Besides, they don’t confuse them. Emptiness samadhi is translated separately from the Nothingness samadhi. Why is it important to stick to the Theravadin suttas only? On death, according to Venerable Buddhadasa there was a popular saying in the TFT that nibbana is “dying before death”. Not quite how I would phrase it, but what you call “annihilationism” or “nihilism” is also there in the tradition you seem to follow. Not everyone in the TFT shares your views on citta.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:52 amWhich is why it's important to stick the Pali. Translating terms into Chinese, 'Emptiness' and 'nothingness' easy to confuse.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:33 amInteresting that it says “Nothingness”. You also see this sometimes in the parallels regarding the 3 special samadhis. Instead of Signless, Emptiness and Desireless you sometimes get Signless, Emptiness and Nothingness.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:11 am
It seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.
Perhaps you should stick with the Chinese canons to support your nihilism and eternal death vision of nibbana.
Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
"Emptiness" and "ākāśa" are ambiguous in some Chinese translations, not "emptiness" and "akiṃcana." Akiṃcana does have a sense of "nothingness" in addition to "poverty" or "owning nothing," hence the ambiguity there.
Chinese Canons aren't any more or less nihilist than the Pāli Canon.
Chinese Canons aren't any more or less nihilist than the Pāli Canon.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
annihilation
noun
1.
complete destruction or obliteration.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Annihilation of what?cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:31 pmannihilation
noun
1.
complete destruction or obliteration.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Complete destruction of you
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
What is "you", exactly?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'
Yamaka Sutta
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?
If you read the rest of the Yamaka Sutta, it becomes clear that there is nothing to be annihilated.cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:47 pmDon't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'
Yamaka Sutta
As the Bahiya Sutta puts it, "no you there".
I'm sure this has been explained to you many times before, but you seem to be stuck in an eternalist view.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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