'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

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cappuccino
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:06 pm It's freedom from aging and death alike.
Exactly… including annihilation
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:06 pm It's freedom from aging and death alike.
Exactly… including annihilation
Annihilation of what? Beings are only a convention, a collection of aggregates.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:06 pm More like Thanissaro Bhikkhu translated "unaging" with a synonym for "eternal."

It's freedom from aging and death alike. Once Nibbāna has happened, that won't happen again. Birth, aging, death: none of it.
So it's release from the cycle of birth and death. But that doesn't mean eternal life, or eternal existence, or whatever.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by asahi »

Here is parallel , lets see what it says .

https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho

云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .

如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。

Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:42 am Here is parallel , lets see what it says .

https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho

云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .

如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。

Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
It seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:11 am
asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:42 am Here is parallel , lets see what it says .

https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho

云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .

如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。

Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
It seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.
Interesting that it says “Nothingness”. You also see this sometimes in the parallels regarding the 3 special samadhis. Instead of Signless, Emptiness and Desireless you sometimes get Signless, Emptiness and Nothingness.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:33 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:11 am
asahi wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:42 am Here is parallel , lets see what it says .

https://suttacentral.net/sa890/lzh/taisho

云何無為法?謂貪欲永盡,瞋恚、愚癡永盡,一切煩惱永盡,是無為法 .
What is the uncreated ? Namely ending of greed hatred and delusion . All defilements comes to an end , that is the uncreated .

如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、.....、無病、無所有、涅槃,亦如是說。

Such it is called uncreated , the hard to see , unmoved , unyielding , deathless , non-outflows , sheltered , an island , ferried across , the relied , ...... sickless , nothingness , nibbana , as it is thus said .
It seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.
Interesting that it says “Nothingness”. You also see this sometimes in the parallels regarding the 3 special samadhis. Instead of Signless, Emptiness and Desireless you sometimes get Signless, Emptiness and Nothingness.
Which is why it's important to stick the Pali. Translating terms into Chinese, 'Emptiness' and 'nothingness' easy to confuse.
Perhaps you should stick with the Chinese canons to support your nihilism and eternal death vision of nibbana.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein the mind ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:52 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:33 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:11 am

It seems like the first paragraph provides a definition of Nibbana, while the second paragraph is more poetic in it's description.
Interesting that it says “Nothingness”. You also see this sometimes in the parallels regarding the 3 special samadhis. Instead of Signless, Emptiness and Desireless you sometimes get Signless, Emptiness and Nothingness.
Which is why it's important to stick the Pali. Translating terms into Chinese, 'Emptiness' and 'nothingness' easy to confuse.
Perhaps you should stick with the Chinese canons to support your nihilism and eternal death vision of nibbana.
I think the translators of the Chinese cannon were skilled enough to tell the difference. Besides, they don’t confuse them. Emptiness samadhi is translated separately from the Nothingness samadhi. Why is it important to stick to the Theravadin suttas only? On death, according to Venerable Buddhadasa there was a popular saying in the TFT that nibbana is “dying before death”. Not quite how I would phrase it, but what you call “annihilationism” or “nihilism” is also there in the tradition you seem to follow. Not everyone in the TFT shares your views on citta.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Emptiness" and "ākāśa" are ambiguous in some Chinese translations, not "emptiness" and "akiṃcana." Akiṃcana does have a sense of "nothingness" in addition to "poverty" or "owning nothing," hence the ambiguity there.

Chinese Canons aren't any more or less nihilist than the Pāli Canon.

:roll:
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:22 am Annihilation of what?
annihilation
noun
1.
complete destruction or obliteration.
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:31 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:22 am Annihilation of what?
annihilation
noun
1.
complete destruction or obliteration.
Annihilation of what?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:41 pm Annihilation of what?
Complete destruction of you
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:42 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:41 pm Annihilation of what?
Complete destruction of you
What is "you", exactly?
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:45 pm What is "you", exactly?
Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'


Yamaka Sutta
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Re: 'Consciousness without Surface': Not Eternalism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:47 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:45 pm What is "you", exactly?
Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'


Yamaka Sutta
If you read the rest of the Yamaka Sutta, it becomes clear that there is nothing to be annihilated.
As the Bahiya Sutta puts it, "no you there".

I'm sure this has been explained to you many times before, but you seem to be stuck in an eternalist view.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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