Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:03 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:41 am In the following video, Venerable Premasiri said that Jhana is inferior to Nibbana.
So attaining Jhana seems easier than attaining Nibbana.
I am not sure whether the same applies to Stream-entry too.
Perhaps eliminating self-view may not be easy for some.
:shrug:
Er…. Looks like he is mistaken. If there is No jhana (samma samadhi), then there will be no Nibbana. Just look at MN 52 and many others.

Unless he is referring to fake jhana, but he should be very careful when he explain it. Because jhana (samma samadhi) is part of N8FP.

O btw, jhana (samma samadhi) is difficult even during Buddha time. One may try to practice samma samadhi, but never able to reach and maintain it for 24/7.

Maintaining ekagata is difficult because one needs all faculties to fully developed.

One more thing: if someone say they don’t follow N8FP to reach Nibbana, just reject them. It will be waste of time.

Good luck.
Jhana was easy in buddha time... may be ur undersranding of jhana is ur own imagination
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:36 pm Jhana was easy in buddha time...
Because they did not over estimate its difficulty


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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:03 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:41 am In the following video, Venerable Premasiri said that Jhana is inferior to Nibbana.
So attaining Jhana seems easier than attaining Nibbana.
I am not sure whether the same applies to Stream-entry too.
Perhaps eliminating self-view may not be easy for some.
:shrug:
Er…. Looks like he is mistaken. If there is No jhana (samma samadhi), then there will be no Nibbana. Just look at MN 52 and many others.

Unless he is referring to fake jhana, but he should be very careful when he explain it. Because jhana (samma samadhi) is part of N8FP.

O btw, jhana (samma samadhi) is difficult even during Buddha time. One may try to practice samma samadhi, but never able to reach and maintain it for 24/7.

Maintaining ekagata is difficult because one needs all faculties to fully developed.

One more thing: if someone say they don’t follow N8FP to reach Nibbana, just reject them. It will be waste of time.

Good luck.
:goodpost:
Agree.
In another video, Venerable Premasiri said that when people attain Nibbana they have already crossed over the Jhana but they are not aware of it.
This is why we have to listen to a person (Kalyana Mitta) for a long time to understand exactly what he meant.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:36 pm Jhana was easy in buddha time... may be ur undersranding of jhana is ur own imagination
LOL... Clearly you have not understood.

If it is easy, every ariya has reached non-returner status at the very least during Buddha time. Also, Buddha will never emphasize this sentence in many Sutta :-)
Etāni, bhikkhave, rukkhamūlāni, etāni suññāgārāni. Jhāyatha, bhikkhave, mā pamādattha; mā pacchā vippaṭisārino ahuvattha. Ayaṁ vo amhākaṁ anusāsanī”ti.
o Btw, Real jhana (Samma Samadhi) is not just sit only. It is can be proven here and now.

Good luck to you.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:05 pm :goodpost:
Agree.
In another video, Venerable Premasiri said that when people attain Nibbana they have already crossed over the Jhana but they are not aware of it.
This is why we have to listen to a person (Kalyana Mitta) for a long time to understand exactly what he meant.
Well...Better checked it and prove it again and again. Not just said one has crossed over the jhana, because jhana is still needed up until end of life.

Buddha said it in many sutta. He also dwelled in higher jhana from time to time even after awakening.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Proposition: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?
DNS wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:32 pm I think that makes sense. Udaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama were sramana ascetics who the Buddha studied under and they were able to reach formless realms, but not enlightenment, nor sotapannahood.
However, that was prior to the arising of the Buddha's dispensation... when there was no Buddha or Sangha or discourses to learn Right View from.

As such, I see nothing in the discourses to substantiate the proposition.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:11 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:05 pm :goodpost:
Agree.
In another video, Venerable Premasiri said that when people attain Nibbana they have already crossed over the Jhana but they are not aware of it.
This is why we have to listen to a person (Kalyana Mitta) for a long time to understand exactly what he meant.
Well...Better checked it and prove it again and again. Not just said one has crossed over the jhana, because jhana is still needed up until end of life.

Buddha said it in many sutta. He also dwelled in higher jhana from time to time even after awakening.
Yes Buddha attained Jhana before his enlightenment.
But there are many Arahants who does not know how to enter Jhana even though they have crossed over it when they attain Nibbana.
It is like you are going from Italy to london on plane. You have to pass many countries in europe but you don't know that.
This is how Venarable Premasiri explain it.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:44 pm Greetings,

Proposition: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?
DNS wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:32 pm I think that makes sense. Udaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama were sramana ascetics who the Buddha studied under and they were able to reach formless realms, but not enlightenment, nor sotapannahood.
However, that was prior to the arising of the Buddha's dispensation... when there was no Buddha or Sangha or discourses to learn Right View from.

As such, I see nothing in the discourses to substantiate the proposition.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Perhaps "Million times" (harder than Jhana) is a bit of an exaggeration.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:47 pm Yes Buddha attained Jhana before his enlightenment.
Those jhana(s) before his awakening are micha samadhi. Only lead to rebirth in higher realms.

But when he reached and after his awakening, he dwelled in jhana with anapanasati. See SN 54.11 and many more.
SN 54.11 wrote:…For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness.

For if anything should be rightly called ‘the meditation of a noble one’, or else ‘the meditation of a Brahmā’, or else ‘the meditation of a realized one’, it’s samadhi due to anapanasati.”
you wrote:But there are many Arahants who does not know how to enter Jhana even though they have crossed over it when they attain Nibbana.
Sorry, this sounds like someone just stumble upon without realizing the path. I think it is impossible. Anyone who walk the path will know where they are at in N8FP.

One can not suddenly become an arahant without entering the stream first.
you wrote: It is like you are going from Italy to london on plane. You have to pass many countries in europe but you don't know that.
This is how Venarable Premasiri explain it.
:shrug:
I would say he is confused. This may lead to someone will say N8FP is not needed, because one can stumble without knowing. The path is clear with objective, then the fruit is realized at each level. Realizing fruit is not easy tasks, because one needs to continue maintain all the goods that have been developed before. This work is 24/7 job.

I have seen many outsiders say this kind of things like one of the poster here (peterc86), or J. Krishnamurthy, etc. Usually, this happen because they are confused. If you analyze their life, then you will know that they are confused indeed.

Anyway, others may say something different here. But i would recommend you analyze your own life experience.

Have i fully known the N8FP? have i ended any dukkhas here and now? Do i still attach to my job, family, wife, money, house, etc?

As always, this path can be proven again and again as long as one follows the exact path of N8FP.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Hi Joe
I suggest you read the Great Jhana Debate.
I am not going to go there.
:D

viewtopic.php?p=619946&hilit=Great+Jhana+debate#p619946

Or read "Critical anaylysis of Jhana" by Bhante Gunaratna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by asahi »

If you equate jhana with samma samadhi then you cannot understand it .
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

SarathW wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:06 am Hi Joe
I suggest you read the Great Jhana Debate.
I am not going to go there.
:D

viewtopic.php?p=619946&hilit=Great+Jhana+debate#p619946

Or read "Critical anaylysis of Jhana" by Bhante Gunaratna.
I read those. but i lose interest after I found there is no practical meaning/usage. Almost all only state their opinion based on theory. 😅

I’m only interested when one say samma samadhi/sati can be maintained for 24hours /7days (daily life) and here is how they do it. Then, I will go talk and check them out whether it is true or not.

Probably tested them out personally. See if it is a fake jhana or real jhana. 😀

Real jhana (samma samadhi) can withstand asava(s) especially kamasava. This can be checked personally.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:43 am I’m only interested when one say samma samadhi/sati can be maintained for 24hours …
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'


Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:17 pm
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic
Lol.. an outsider wants to use Sutta. 😅😅😅
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:13 am Lol.. an outsider wants to use Sutta. 😅😅😅
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