I'm having trouble translating this line from the Vinaya commentary. Any help would be appreciated.
apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
Translating commentary
Translating commentary
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Translating commentary
Maybe -āsu is the locative plural. That's about all the help I can give. "Sabbopi" is maybe "sabba + api" but I don't know why the a + a would = o if that were the case.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Translating commentary
Literally something like: "moreover, regarding suttas, abhidhamma, vinaya and commentaries handed down, all indeed theravada calls "attanoma".
Or, depending on the meaning of the locative (I think C. is right...) it might mean "moreover, IN the suttas, etc. ...
I'm sorry I don't know what attanoma means, and I am assuming the 'ti is an end of quote, signifying the word "attanoma".
That's embarrassingly bad, but it might help a tiny bit...
Re: Translating commentary
It means personal opinion. It is referring to the 4 levels of authority in Theravāda. It's strange because it seems to say that the suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are "personal opinions".Sam Vara wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:50 pmLiterally something like: "moreover, regarding suttas, abhidhamma, vinaya and commentaries handed down, all indeed theravada calls "attanoma".
Or, depending on the meaning of the locative (I think C. is right...) it might mean "moreover, IN the suttas, etc. ...
I'm sorry I don't know what attanoma means, and I am assuming the 'ti is an end of quote, signifying the word "attanoma".
That's embarrassingly bad, but it might help a tiny bit...
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Translating commentary
Greetings,
Attanomati is "personal opinion" - the lowest of the four levels of authority recognised in the Mahavihara tradition.
1. Sutta: "the well-said" = the three baskets of the Tipiṭaka.
2. Suttānuloma: "the according with the well-said" = a direct inference from the Tipiṭaka.
3. Atthakathā: "treatise on the meaning" = an ancient commentary.
4. Attanomati: "personal opinion" = the expositions and views of later generations of teachers.
Metta,
Paul.
Attanomati is "personal opinion" - the lowest of the four levels of authority recognised in the Mahavihara tradition.
1. Sutta: "the well-said" = the three baskets of the Tipiṭaka.
2. Suttānuloma: "the according with the well-said" = a direct inference from the Tipiṭaka.
3. Atthakathā: "treatise on the meaning" = an ancient commentary.
4. Attanomati: "personal opinion" = the expositions and views of later generations of teachers.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Translating commentary
Ah, yes, it's in our own forum guidelines for Classical Theravada contributions.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:53 pmIt means personal opinion. It is referring to the 4 levels of authority in Theravāda. It's strange because it seems to say that the suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are "personal opinions".Sam Vara wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:50 pmLiterally something like: "moreover, regarding suttas, abhidhamma, vinaya and commentaries handed down, all indeed theravada calls "attanoma".
Or, depending on the meaning of the locative (I think C. is right...) it might mean "moreover, IN the suttas, etc. ...
I'm sorry I don't know what attanoma means, and I am assuming the 'ti is an end of quote, signifying the word "attanoma".
That's embarrassingly bad, but it might help a tiny bit...
Could it mean "In all suttas, etc., handed down, attanomati is also named?" That would make more sense. But please don't rely on it! This is going to look pretty lame when a Pali expert turns up...
Re: Translating commentary
What alternative do you think it could be? Suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are all handed down on a hard drive in a computer server found in the 2,600 year old Rose Apple Cloud storage?
Re: Translating commentary
I believe 'attanomati' should be understood as 'attano' (gen.) 'of one's self' + mati (opinion) = 'one's own opinion', 'personal opinion'.
It seems a term only in later Pāli.
apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
I think this would have the sense of,
"furthermore, all of the Elder's Doctrine come to/found in the commentary to the suttas, abhidhamma, and vinaya is called 'personal opinion'."
I think in that same piece of cmy there is:
attanomati ācariyavāde otāretabbā. sace tattha otarati ceva sameti ca, gahetabbā. sace neva otarati na sameti, na gahetabbā. ayañhi attanomati nāma sabbadubbalā. attanomatito ācariyavādo balavataro.
'personal opinion should be found in the Doctrine of the Teacher, if when checked into there it corresponds it should be taken/included. But if when checked into it does not correspond it should not be taken/included, indeed this 'personal opinion' is the weakest of them all. The Doctrine of the Teacher is stronger than personal opinion.
It seems a term only in later Pāli.
apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
I think this would have the sense of,
"furthermore, all of the Elder's Doctrine come to/found in the commentary to the suttas, abhidhamma, and vinaya is called 'personal opinion'."
I think in that same piece of cmy there is:
attanomati ācariyavāde otāretabbā. sace tattha otarati ceva sameti ca, gahetabbā. sace neva otarati na sameti, na gahetabbā. ayañhi attanomati nāma sabbadubbalā. attanomatito ācariyavādo balavataro.
'personal opinion should be found in the Doctrine of the Teacher, if when checked into there it corresponds it should be taken/included. But if when checked into it does not correspond it should not be taken/included, indeed this 'personal opinion' is the weakest of them all. The Doctrine of the Teacher is stronger than personal opinion.
Re: Translating commentary
Also, all the "Opinions of the Elder monks" that come within the Commentaries of "Sutta, Abhidhamma and Vinaya", are called Attanomati.
The above is the English meaning.
It is about the inclusions of elder-monks' opinions into the Ancient Atthakata. They are Attanomati. The "Original ancient atthakatha" is the Acariyavada.
Here the Theravada doesn't mean the name of the tradition. (Thera=elders Vada=opinion)
Re: Translating commentary
"Theravāda" was probably still called "Vibhajyavāda" when this was written. It makes sense that the term wouldn't yet be a technical term referring to a specific school of Buddhism, but rather a general term for doctrines associated with Theras as opposed to the Buddha, as the above suggests, unless I read it wrong.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Translating commentary
Greetings Eko Care,
Metta,
Paul.
Do you have an example of what this could be referring to, in practice? Is it differentiating the proto-commentaries of the Sutta Pitaka from the commentaries that came afterwards? What about those like Buddhaghosa who came well after Theravada meant what it normally means? Your interpretation seems to raise at least as many questions as it answers.Eko Care wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:49 pm Also, all the "Opinions of the Elder monks" that come within the Commentaries of "Sutta, Abhidhamma and Vinaya", are called Attanomati.
The above is the English meaning.
It is about the inclusions of elder-monks' opinions into the Ancient Atthakata. They are Attanomati. The "Original ancient atthakatha" is the Acariyavada.
Here the Theravada doesn't mean the name of the tradition. (Thera=elders Vada=opinion)
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Translating commentary
The tradition was called "Theriya" or "Theriya nikaya".
There are some stories and opinions from Ancient elders(eg; Mahasumma, mahapaduma) who were considered as Arahants, has included into the Ancient Atthakata separately with their names. Those parts can be identified because their opinions are mentioned with their names.
The rest part is considered the Athakata or Acariyavada that descend from the Great Arahants, as the interpretation of Tipitaka based on the Pakinnaka Desana of the Buddha.
When he includes his opinion (in very few occasions), he has specifically mentioned it. Those inclusions are considered Attanomati.
There are some stories and opinions from Ancient elders(eg; Mahasumma, mahapaduma) who were considered as Arahants, has included into the Ancient Atthakata separately with their names. Those parts can be identified because their opinions are mentioned with their names.
The rest part is considered the Athakata or Acariyavada that descend from the Great Arahants, as the interpretation of Tipitaka based on the Pakinnaka Desana of the Buddha.
His translation considered a Mere Translation and summarization of the Ancient Atthakata.What about those like Buddhaghosa who came well after Theravada
When he includes his opinion (in very few occasions), he has specifically mentioned it. Those inclusions are considered Attanomati.
Re: Translating commentary
Yes, exactly, which is why I translated it that way above.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:40 am "Theravāda" was probably still called "Vibhajyavāda" when this was written. It makes sense that the term wouldn't yet be a technical term referring to a specific school of Buddhism, but rather a general term for doctrines associated with Theras as opposed to the Buddha, as the above suggests, unless I read it wrong.
It seems the commentary is arguing with itself here a bit, trying to establish a hierarchy of authority.
Re: Translating commentary
I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that the passage might be interpreted more simply as confirming that the vādas presented by the Theras, figures who are esteemed disciples of the Tathāgata, figures like Venerable Mahākassapa, in the suttas themselves remain personal opinions. They aren't "sanctified" and "canonized to truth" by virtue of being in a Pāli sutta. A Thera in the Pāli suttas, say Ven Ānanda, speaks personal opinions, be them right or wrong. The Buddha speaks on a different order of importance.ssasny wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:23 amYes, exactly, which is why I translated it that way above.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:40 am "Theravāda" was probably still called "Vibhajyavāda" when this was written. It makes sense that the term wouldn't yet be a technical term referring to a specific school of Buddhism, but rather a general term for doctrines associated with Theras as opposed to the Buddha, as the above suggests, unless I read it wrong.
It seems the commentary is arguing with itself here a bit, trying to establish a hierarchy of authority.
I have no clue if that's right. I don't read Pāli well or fluently, but that comes to mind as a possible, maybe likely, angle that this text could be coming from.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Translating commentary
I don't think this commentary is addressing the root texts, the Tipitaka.
Rather it seem to be addressing various types, or levels, of commentary.
At one point, it equates all aṭṭhakathā (theravādo) with "attanomati".
apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
There is also an additional category created called, "ācariyavādo", which seems to be sometimes differentiated from aṭṭhakathā.
In any case, for me, the overlying message seems to be, 'consider the source!'
Rather it seem to be addressing various types, or levels, of commentary.
At one point, it equates all aṭṭhakathā (theravādo) with "attanomati".
apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
There is also an additional category created called, "ācariyavādo", which seems to be sometimes differentiated from aṭṭhakathā.
In any case, for me, the overlying message seems to be, 'consider the source!'