Translating commentary

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Ceisiwr
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Translating commentary

Post by Ceisiwr »

I'm having trouble translating this line from the Vinaya commentary. Any help would be appreciated.

apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


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Coëmgenu
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Coëmgenu »

Maybe -āsu is the locative plural. That's about all the help I can give. "Sabbopi" is maybe "sabba + api" but I don't know why the a + a would = o if that were the case.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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Sam Vara
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:19 pm I'm having trouble translating this line from the Vinaya commentary. Any help would be appreciated.

apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
Literally something like: "moreover, regarding suttas, abhidhamma, vinaya and commentaries handed down, all indeed theravada calls "attanoma".

Or, depending on the meaning of the locative (I think C. is right...) it might mean "moreover, IN the suttas, etc. ...

I'm sorry I don't know what attanoma means, and I am assuming the 'ti is an end of quote, signifying the word "attanoma".

That's embarrassingly bad, but it might help a tiny bit... :embarassed:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:19 pm I'm having trouble translating this line from the Vinaya commentary. Any help would be appreciated.

apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
Literally something like: "moreover, regarding suttas, abhidhamma, vinaya and commentaries handed down, all indeed theravada calls "attanoma".

Or, depending on the meaning of the locative (I think C. is right...) it might mean "moreover, IN the suttas, etc. ...

I'm sorry I don't know what attanoma means, and I am assuming the 'ti is an end of quote, signifying the word "attanoma".

That's embarrassingly bad, but it might help a tiny bit... :embarassed:
It means personal opinion. It is referring to the 4 levels of authority in Theravāda. It's strange because it seems to say that the suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are "personal opinions".
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


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retrofuturist
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Attanomati is "personal opinion" - the lowest of the four levels of authority recognised in the Mahavihara tradition.

1. Sutta: "the well-said" = the three baskets of the Tipiṭaka.
2. Suttānuloma: "the according with the well-said" = a direct inference from the Tipiṭaka.
3. Atthakathā: "treatise on the meaning" = an ancient commentary.
4. Attanomati: "personal opinion" = the expositions and views of later generations of teachers.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Sam Vara
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:53 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:19 pm I'm having trouble translating this line from the Vinaya commentary. Any help would be appreciated.

apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
Literally something like: "moreover, regarding suttas, abhidhamma, vinaya and commentaries handed down, all indeed theravada calls "attanoma".

Or, depending on the meaning of the locative (I think C. is right...) it might mean "moreover, IN the suttas, etc. ...

I'm sorry I don't know what attanoma means, and I am assuming the 'ti is an end of quote, signifying the word "attanoma".

That's embarrassingly bad, but it might help a tiny bit... :embarassed:
It means personal opinion. It is referring to the 4 levels of authority in Theravāda. It's strange because it seems to say that the suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are "personal opinions".
Ah, yes, it's in our own forum guidelines for Classical Theravada contributions.

Could it mean "In all suttas, etc., handed down, attanomati is also named?" That would make more sense. But please don't rely on it! This is going to look pretty lame when a Pali expert turns up...
Alrac
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Alrac »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:53 pm It means personal opinion. It is referring to the 4 levels of authority in Theravāda. It's strange because it seems to say that the suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are "personal opinions".
What alternative do you think it could be? Suttas, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and commentaries are all handed down on a hard drive in a computer server found in the 2,600 year old Rose Apple Cloud storage?
ssasny
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by ssasny »

I believe 'attanomati' should be understood as 'attano' (gen.) 'of one's self' + mati (opinion) = 'one's own opinion', 'personal opinion'.
It seems a term only in later Pāli.

apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.

I think this would have the sense of,
"furthermore, all of the Elder's Doctrine come to/found in the commentary to the suttas, abhidhamma, and vinaya is called 'personal opinion'."

I think in that same piece of cmy there is:

attanomati ācariyavāde otāretabbā. sace tattha otarati ceva sameti ca, gahetabbā. sace neva otarati na sameti, na gahetabbā. ayañhi attanomati nāma sabbadubbalā. attanomatito ācariyavādo balavataro.

'personal opinion should be found in the Doctrine of the Teacher, if when checked into there it corresponds it should be taken/included. But if when checked into it does not correspond it should not be taken/included, indeed this 'personal opinion' is the weakest of them all. The Doctrine of the Teacher is stronger than personal opinion.
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Eko Care
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:19 pm I'm having trouble translating this line from the Vinaya commentary. Any help would be appreciated.

apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.
Also, all the "Opinions of the Elder monks" that come within the Commentaries of "Sutta, Abhidhamma and Vinaya", are called Attanomati.

The above is the English meaning.

It is about the inclusions of elder-monks' opinions into the Ancient Atthakata. They are Attanomati. The "Original ancient atthakatha" is the Acariyavada.

Here the Theravada doesn't mean the name of the tradition. (Thera=elders Vada=opinion)
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Theravāda" was probably still called "Vibhajyavāda" when this was written. It makes sense that the term wouldn't yet be a technical term referring to a specific school of Buddhism, but rather a general term for doctrines associated with Theras as opposed to the Buddha, as the above suggests, unless I read it wrong.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:49 pm Also, all the "Opinions of the Elder monks" that come within the Commentaries of "Sutta, Abhidhamma and Vinaya", are called Attanomati.

The above is the English meaning.

It is about the inclusions of elder-monks' opinions into the Ancient Atthakata. They are Attanomati. The "Original ancient atthakatha" is the Acariyavada.

Here the Theravada doesn't mean the name of the tradition. (Thera=elders Vada=opinion)
Do you have an example of what this could be referring to, in practice? Is it differentiating the proto-commentaries of the Sutta Pitaka from the commentaries that came afterwards? What about those like Buddhaghosa who came well after Theravada meant what it normally means? Your interpretation seems to raise at least as many questions as it answers.

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Eko Care
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Eko Care »

The tradition was called "Theriya" or "Theriya nikaya".

There are some stories and opinions from Ancient elders(eg; Mahasumma, mahapaduma) who were considered as Arahants, has included into the Ancient Atthakata separately with their names. Those parts can be identified because their opinions are mentioned with their names.

The rest part is considered the Athakata or Acariyavada that descend from the Great Arahants, as the interpretation of Tipitaka based on the Pakinnaka Desana of the Buddha.
What about those like Buddhaghosa who came well after Theravada
His translation considered a Mere Translation and summarization of the Ancient Atthakata.

When he includes his opinion (in very few occasions), he has specifically mentioned it. Those inclusions are considered Attanomati.
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by ssasny »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:40 am "Theravāda" was probably still called "Vibhajyavāda" when this was written. It makes sense that the term wouldn't yet be a technical term referring to a specific school of Buddhism, but rather a general term for doctrines associated with Theras as opposed to the Buddha, as the above suggests, unless I read it wrong.
Yes, exactly, which is why I translated it that way above.
It seems the commentary is arguing with itself here a bit, trying to establish a hierarchy of authority.
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:23 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:40 am "Theravāda" was probably still called "Vibhajyavāda" when this was written. It makes sense that the term wouldn't yet be a technical term referring to a specific school of Buddhism, but rather a general term for doctrines associated with Theras as opposed to the Buddha, as the above suggests, unless I read it wrong.
Yes, exactly, which is why I translated it that way above.
It seems the commentary is arguing with itself here a bit, trying to establish a hierarchy of authority.
I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that the passage might be interpreted more simply as confirming that the vādas presented by the Theras, figures who are esteemed disciples of the Tathāgata, figures like Venerable Mahākassapa, in the suttas themselves remain personal opinions. They aren't "sanctified" and "canonized to truth" by virtue of being in a Pāli sutta. A Thera in the Pāli suttas, say Ven Ānanda, speaks personal opinions, be them right or wrong. The Buddha speaks on a different order of importance.

I have no clue if that's right. I don't read Pāli well or fluently, but that comes to mind as a possible, maybe likely, angle that this text could be coming from.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
ssasny
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Re: Translating commentary

Post by ssasny »

I don't think this commentary is addressing the root texts, the Tipitaka.
Rather it seem to be addressing various types, or levels, of commentary.

At one point, it equates all aṭṭhakathā (theravādo) with "attanomati".
apica suttantābhidhammavinayaṭṭhakathāsu āgato sabbopi theravādo “attanomati” nāma.

There is also an additional category created called, "ācariyavādo", which seems to be sometimes differentiated from aṭṭhakathā.

In any case, for me, the overlying message seems to be, 'consider the source!'
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