“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Eko Care
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“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by Eko Care »

There are cases in the Suttas where the context is very important. Ignoring the context in such cases is considered ignorance by Classical Theravada.
Dhammanando wrote:
josephzizys wrote: This strange clustering of the four foundations of mindfulness in the Samyutta however is even more striking than it seems, because if we remove the occurrences in the standard formula listing dhamma subjects known as the 37 factors of awakening, that is the phrase “cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo” then the Vinaya has no mention of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā at all. This is somewhat troubling, recall that the Vinaya mentions the first jhana 48 times.
Among Bible scholars a popular saying has it that, **“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.** With that in mind, you’ll need to do a little more than just counting occurrences.

Now virtually all of the Vinaya’s mentions of the first jhāna are in the context of the fourth pārājika and eighth pācittiya rules for bhikkhus, along with their corresponding rules for bhikkhunīs. The former prohibits false declarations of any kind of uttarimanussadhamma; the latter prohibits truthful declarations of an uttarimanussadhamma when talking to unordained people.

That being so, your data is readily accounted for by the simple fact that the first jhāna is an uttarimanussadhamma, while the four satipaṭṭhānas are not.
Actually in many cases, the Non-Classical Theravadins (specially the modern groups) tend to ignore the context while interpreting the words. It is one of the main weaknesses of them that any matured one can easily notice.

Even the monks who have a Yogacara bent (Bhikkhu Nanananda, Analayo etc.) seems define meanings of the words ignoring the context. For an instance they define the meaning of "Nama" of Pancakkhanda in the same way as in Paticcasamuppada, but the Atthakata defines the meaning depending on the context.

Venerable Nanavira, Buddhadasa etc used to (as I heard) interpret Paticcasamuppada only using "momentary-model" and ignored the "three-life model" in useful contexts.

Many Thai-forest masters used the general meaning of the words Pabbhassara, Vinnana in all cases even when it is not suitable depending on the context.

There are many basics to learn beforehand about how to read the Suttas.
  • There are many words that should be interpreted according to the Context.
    eg:
    Nama
    Magga
    Sankhara
    etc.
  • And there are many passages that should be interpreted according to the Context as well.
    eg:
    Kalama uddesa
    etc.
  • There are Neyyattha suttas (meaning is to be derived) and Nitattha suttas (meaning is explicit).
  • And there are Sappadesa suttas (meaning is taken along with other related suttas) and Nippadesa suttas (meaning is taken alone).
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Sam Vara
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by Sam Vara »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:30 am ...
Thanks, EC, that all sounds like good advice to me.

But regarding this bit:
There are many basics to learn beforehand about how to read the Suttas.
How would you go about applying it in practice? Would you recommend some sort of review of the various aṭṭhakathā before reading the relevant suttas? Or do you rely on Pali dictionaries to flag up the various meanings and then try to fit the best one according to context?

For example, having learnt that the meaning of the term nāma is context-dependent, how might the reader of a sutta proceed?
BKh
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by BKh »

Dhammanando wrote:
josephzizys wrote:
Speaking of no context, reposting snips of conversations in other forums without posting a link back to the original conversation is a strange thing to do.
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Eko Care
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by Eko Care »

BKh wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:46 am ...
Yes, it can also be a proof text. I was expecting Mike to provide the context as he always used to whenever I quote from his favorite site.
BKh
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by BKh »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:59 am I was expecting Mike to provide the context
Don't be lazy.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:30 am There are cases in the Suttas where the context is very important. Ignoring the context in such cases is considered ignorance by Classical Theravada.
Dhammanando wrote:
josephzizys wrote: This strange clustering of the four foundations of mindfulness in the Samyutta however is even more striking than it seems, because if we remove the occurrences in the standard formula listing dhamma subjects known as the 37 factors of awakening, that is the phrase “cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo” then the Vinaya has no mention of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā at all. This is somewhat troubling, recall that the Vinaya mentions the first jhana 48 times.
Among Bible scholars a popular saying has it that, **“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.** With that in mind, you’ll need to do a little more than just counting occurrences.

Now virtually all of the Vinaya’s mentions of the first jhāna are in the context of the fourth pārājika and eighth pācittiya rules for bhikkhus, along with their corresponding rules for bhikkhunīs. The former prohibits false declarations of any kind of uttarimanussadhamma; the latter prohibits truthful declarations of an uttarimanussadhamma when talking to unordained people.

That being so, your data is readily accounted for by the simple fact that the first jhāna is an uttarimanussadhamma, while the four satipaṭṭhānas are not.
Actually in many cases, the Non-Classical Theravadins (specially the modern groups) tend to ignore the context while interpreting the words. It is one of the main weaknesses of them that any matured one can easily notice.

Even the monks who have a Yogacara bent (Bhikkhu Nanananda, Analayo etc.) seems define meanings of the words ignoring the context. For an instance they define the meaning of "Nama" of Pancakkhanda in the same way as in Paticcasamuppada, but the Atthakata defines the meaning depending on the context.

Venerable Nanavira, Buddhadasa etc used to (as I heard) interpret Paticcasamuppada only using "momentary-model" and ignored the "three-life model" in useful contexts.

Many Thai-forest masters used the general meaning of the words Pabbhassara, Vinnana in all cases even when it is not suitable depending on the context.

There are many basics to learn beforehand about how to read the Suttas.
  • There are many words that should be interpreted according to the Context.
    eg:
    Nama
    Magga
    Sankhara
    etc.
  • And there are many passages that should be interpreted according to the Context as well.
    eg:
    Kalama uddesa
    etc.
  • There are Neyyattha suttas (meaning is to be derived) and Nitattha suttas (meaning is explicit).
  • And there are Sappadesa suttas (meaning is taken along with other related suttas) and Nippadesa suttas (meaning is taken alone).
How is using the commentarial definition of a particular term giving proper regard to context?
"This term means that because a commentary says so." doesn't seem like an objective approach to textual analysis.
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Pulsar
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman wrote
How is using the commentarial definition of a particular term giving proper regard to context?
"This term means that because a commentary says so." doesn't seem like an objective approach to textual analysis.
That is a fine observation Dearest Spiny Norman.
Pulsar
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by Pulsar »

Eko care wrote
For an instance they define the meaning of "Nama" of Pancakkhanda in the same way as in Paticcasamuppada, but the Atthakata defines the meaning depending on the context.
Can you explain the difference in the context between the two?
What is Nama in Paticca samuppada?
What is Nama in Pancakkhanda?
Can you differentiate for the forum?
Did Attahakata misunderstand the fundamental importance of identification in these instances? Buddha's entire Dhamma is dependent on the issue of identification. Finding an "I" when there is not an "I".
Once a rupa rising in the mind is named, or identified,
there begins a sequence of suffering eventually.

Now I know that Abhidhamma got the issue of rupa in Paticca samuppada and Pancakkhanda somewhat different.
Is it because to begin with, they got the initial step of arising of consciousness differently?
In the Samyutta Nikaya
  • when a thing arising in the mind "Rupa" is identified, due to ignorance a new consciousness is created.
nama-rupa leads to vinnana
In the Samyutta Nikaya rupa of Nama-rupa is a mental event. In Abhidhamma rupa, of Nama-rupa appears to be a physical event.
Consciousness is subject to relentless renewal. That happens no matter whether the eyes are open or not, for a visible object.
Mind has a way of retrieving objects seen, sounds heard, while the eyes and ears etc. are closed, and continuing with Dependent Origination of Suffering.
Regards :candle:
PS I know that on this forum, we are not supposed to challenge the understanding of Classical Theravada.
I am merely asking you a question? How does the context differ in Paticca samuppada and 5 aggregates, according to Classical Theravada?
In the original Buddha Dhamma, there is no difference between the two, i.e. context is the same.
If my comment is offensive, can you Please move the discussion to Theravada forum, so we can freely express our opinions, without our hands being tied by the rules of the forum.
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mikenz66
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Re: “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”.

Post by mikenz66 »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:59 am
BKh wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:46 am ...
Yes, it can also be a proof text. I was expecting Mike to provide the context as he always used to whenever I quote from his favorite site.
I think you need to do your own work for a change... :tongue:
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