Which modern teachers are reliable?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:44 pm Thanks Mike. Do you know if there are any suttas that go into great detail about the jhana technique?
I know that the suttas give a lot of space to the jhânas. But do they explain precisely and methodically how to reach them?
Thank you in advance.
Personally I really like DN 2. It’s my number 1 sutta. It outlines the whole practice, and gives some hints as to how the absorptions work.

Virtue > sense restraint > mindfulness and clear comprehension > contentment >
The Abandoning of the Hindrances
“Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling—a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meals, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.

“Having abandoned covetousness for the world, he dwells with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a benevolent mind, sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells perceiving light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness. Having abandoned restlessness and worry, he dwells at ease within himself, with a peaceful mind; he purifies his mind from restlessness and worry. Having abandoned doubt, he dwells as one who has passed beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind from doubt.

“Great king, suppose a man were to take a loan and apply it to his business, and his business were to succeed, so that he could pay back his old debts and would have enough money left over to maintain a wife. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man were to become sick, afflicted, gravely ill, so that he could not enjoy his food and his strength would decline. After some time he would recover from that illness and would enjoy his food and regain his bodily strength. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man were locked up in a prison. After some time he would be released from prison, safe and secure, with no loss of his possessions. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man were a slave, without independence, subservient to others, unable to go where he wants. After some time he would be released from slavery and gain his independence; he would no longer be subservient to others but a free man able to go where he wants. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man with wealth and possessions were travelling along a desert road where food was scarce and dangers were many. After some time he would cross over the desert and arrive safely at a village which is safe and free from danger. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.

“When he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, gladness arises. When he is gladdened, rapture arises. When his mind is filled with rapture, his body becomes tranquil; tranquil in body, he experiences happiness; being happy, his mind becomes concentrated.

The First Jhāna
“Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.

“Great king, suppose a skilled bath attendant or his apprentice were to pour soap-powder into a metal basin, sprinkle it with water, and knead it into a ball, so that the ball of soap-powder be pervaded by moisture, encompassed by moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out, yet would not trickle. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.
First you perfect virtue and sense restraint. This helps to weaken the grosser hindrances of sensual desire and ill-will. Then, when sitting down to meditate, say via mindfulness of breathing, you abandon the finer hindrances. When then you see that the mind is free of the hindrances joy arises, followed by the Jhana factors. It’s also worth remembering that Jhana occurs when the mind is

santiṭṭhati: stands still; remains; to be fixed or settled

sannisīdati: settles; subsides; becomes quiet

ekodi: woven into one’, integrated, unified; withdrawn, apart

Also remember that the citta is what is concentrated, and that the citta depends upon name (feeling, perception, intention, contact & attention) and one’s form (rupa)
Mendicants, I will teach you the origin and the ending of the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. Listen …

And what is the origin of the body? The body originates from food. When food ceases, the body ends.

Feelings originate from contact. When contact ceases, feelings end.

Citta originates from name and form. When name and form cease, citta ends.

Dhammā [hindrances and awakening factors] originate from attention. When attention ends, dhammā end.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.42/en/suj ... ript=latin

You become focused on the breath. When the breath (rupa) becomes calm, tranquil, stilled then nama (feeling, perception, intention etc) becomes calm, tranquil and stilled. When name and form is calm, tranquil and stilled then the citta (mind) becomes calm, tranquil and stilled and immerses in samadhi. Dependent origination in action, as it were. Personally I recommend focusing your attention at the tip of the nose in order to fix, calm and still the mind. Ajahn Sona also recommends this, as does Theravada and the Sutrantikas of old.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by DeadBuddha »

SarathW wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:44 pm Perhaps another thing to consider is that the teaching is progressing from gross to subtle.
Some teachers are discussing the gross factors while others are discussing the subtle factors.
As Mike pointed out all these different teachers may be correct based on the context they teach.
The only way to know this is by reading, listening, and practicing.

It also pays to learn about the ten corruption in meditation.
In the previous video 54:27

Ten imperfections of insight (vipassanupakkilesa)

A brilliant light (obhasa)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquility (passaddhi)
Happiness or bliss (sukha)
Intense faith (adhimokkha)
Exertion (paggaha)
Knowledge (nana)
Assurance (upatthana)
Equanimity (upekkha)
Subtle attachment (nikanti)

https://drarisworld.wordpress.com/2018/ ... -buddhism/

Your open-mindedness and non-dogmatism is very refreshing, thank you.

And thanks for the link to the article, it looks like a good summary.
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:31 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:59 pm Thank you for your recommendation!
You’re welcome. If you’re more interested in mindfulness of breathing then his book on it is quite good. I don’t quite agree with Bhante’s wider views regarding the nimittas, but overall I quite like it.

https://birken.ca/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ndness.pdf

Thank you again!

Let me ask you a question about nimitta. Pa Auk considers that after a certain time, nimitta ends up merging with the breath, so as to form a single object of perception called "anapana nimatta". What do you think about this idea of fusion?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DeadBuddha wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:31 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:59 pm Thank you for your recommendation!
You’re welcome. If you’re more interested in mindfulness of breathing then his book on it is quite good. I don’t quite agree with Bhante’s wider views regarding the nimittas, but overall I quite like it.

https://birken.ca/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ndness.pdf

Thank you again!

Let me ask you a question about nimitta. Pa Auk considers that after a certain time, nimitta ends up merging with the breath, so as to form a single object of perception called "anapana nimatta". What do you think about this idea of fusion?
Nimittas are important. They are essentially the minds attempt, or specifically sanna’s, at trying to match the refined and otherworldly state of Jhana with something previously experienced. This is why it occurs differently to each individual. A glowing light, a tactile sensation, whatever. Also remember that when in Jhana you are corresponding to the deva realms of the rupa-loka. Realms of subtle forms and light. Nimittas crop up in most meditation systems, Buddhist and non-Buddhist. There is some debate if you are to focus exclusively on them or not, if the 5 senses are active but dimmed somewhat or totally absent. I think when practicing Kasina, that results in a totally absorbed meditation. I think mindfulness of breathing does too. Prior to that there will be a nimitta and rapture and bliss filling the whole body and mind. Everyone agrees on that. If Jhana is a state of total absorption, or if that is actually a mid-point between the Jhanas and the formless is something I’ve not fully decided upon. Regardless, just getting to rapture and bliss of the whole body and mind is a major achievement in both camps, and when you get there you can see for yourself if it’s worth totally absorbing or not. As I say, even if total absorption isn’t Jhana you will have passed through Jhana to get there, and everyone recognises that moving into the formless isn’t a bad thing to do.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
Posts: 21234
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by SarathW »

Good article on The Ten Imperfections of Insight (vipassanupakilesas):

https://audiodharma.us-east-1.linodeobj ... nsight.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by mikenz66 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:44 pm Do you know if there are any suttas that go into great detail about the jhana technique?
I know that the suttas give a lot of space to the jhânas. But do they explain precisely and methodically how to reach them?
My opinion is that the suttas give a lot of detail on what is necessary, and the results, but it is up to the practitioner, preferably with the help of experienced practitioners, to fill in the details. In the suttas you can find descriptions of bhikkhus being instructed by senior bhikkhus, and suggestions to ask someone if you have not figured it out.
E.g. AN4.94 https://suttacentral.net/an4.94
and, of course the suttas like DN2 or MN27 that were mentioned above have the Buddha, or others, guiding the practitioner, according to their progress. This is from MN107- https://suttacentral.net/mn107
When they have ethical conduct, the Realized One guides them further:
‘Come, mendicant, guard your sense doors. When you see a sight with your eyes, don’t get caught up in the features and details.
Presumably some of that detailed instruction from the Buddha's time, and later, was assembled into Commentarial material, such as the Visuddhimagga. It is arguable that the lack of detail in the suttas is why you see so many different suggestions about practice details in ancient an modern meditation manuals (such as the Vissudhimagga). This is not necessarily a bad thing. It is the results spelled out in the suttas that are the important Dhamma teachings, not whether you observe the breath at some particular place, or do walking meditation at some particular speed. Different practitioners need different approaches at different times and by laying out the results, the Buddha left plenty of room for creativity of approach.

:heart:
Mike
BrokenBones
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by BrokenBones »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:02 pm Hello to all,

To reach the jhânas, there are many modern teachers with different methods.

A few days ago I was trying the method of the Venerable Ayya Khema. But while reading this forum, I ended up believing the critics who said that it does not allow jhânas.

So I decided to read Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw. And reading the reviews in this forum, I started to doubt his method.

Many readers of this forum must be in my case. With this topic, I would like to dispel our doubt, for the sake of all beings.

So, here is my question: according to you, to enter the jhânas (in the most intense sense possible), which teachers are reliable?


Thank you in advance.
I don't know what you mean by 'intense'... if your jhana is intense it's probably wrong concentration. Jhanas are letting go not intensifying.

Below is my recommendation...

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ajhan brahm , vism , sutta jhanas are one and same


Hillside hermitage monks also have right view
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
Posts: 21234
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by SarathW »

Bhante Gunaratne did a Ph.D. in Buddhism and wrote his thesis on meditation.
What I can recall is even he has to accept some errors in his thises.
If my memory is hazy I apologize for this post.
However, I recommend you read it as it has wealth of information. (I read it twice)
Perhaps see whether you can spot the error.
:D

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el351.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by confusedlayman »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:33 am Ajhan brahm , vism , sutta jhanas are one and same


Hillside hermitage monks also have right view
I also donate to above monestry of ajhan brahm and hillside hermitage because of faith. I like to support them.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
DeadBuddha
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:48 pm

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Thank you for your answers.


Please, there is something I don't understand. When we reach the first jhana (when we experience it), what should we do to stabilize and maintain it? Do we have to focus on the factors of jhânas? Or should we focus on the breath?

Thank you in advance
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Which modern teachers are reliable?

Post by confusedlayman »

DeadBuddha wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:36 am Thank you for your answers.


Please, there is something I don't understand. When we reach the first jhana (when we experience it), what should we do to stabilize and maintain it? Do we have to focus on the factors of jhânas? Or should we focus on the breath?

Thank you in advance
Enjoy ur first jhana feeling without producing intentional thought, then u enter second jhana ...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Post Reply