Update TOS to reflect the current policy

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mjaviem
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by mjaviem »

jinic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:43 pm
The “spirit of the law” is often contrasted to the “letter of the law.” In that context, the spirit of the law has to do with the deeper meaning or reason for the law, whereas the letter of the law refers to exact wording, literally applied, without regard for any deeper meaning. Children are good at emphasizing the letter of the law to the exclusion of the spirit of it. The following example may help:

A child comes home from school and is told, “Do not watch TV until you finish your homework.” A few minutes later, his mother finds him watching cartoons on his tablet, with his homework untouched. The child protests that his mom only told him not to watch TV—she never said anything about watching cartoons on a tablet. In this example, the child has kept the letter of the law, but he has violated the spirit of the law.
https://www.gotquestions.org/spirit-of-the-law.html
You can't make a call to the "spirit" of the law in a Theravada buddhist forum!

Ok, now, being serious, I hope you stay. I think discussions with you are valuable in the forum.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
BrokenBones
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by BrokenBones »

It's hard to know exactly without further info but on the surface it does appear a bit petty... but it's a bazzin way to win an argument.
TRobinson465
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by TRobinson465 »

Well what was the unsubstantiated allegation in question? If they were actually ignoring that rule itd be good to know if your complaint had any merit or not.

From my experience DW was indeed laughably bad at enforcing thier own TOS when i was relatively new to the forum, there were whole rules about certain things being "strictly forbidden" :quote: that every single mod ignored and some mods joined in on. But this has since been rectified as they simply updated the ToS accordingly to allow such behavior. TBH i think the mods are fairly good at enforcing the current ToS now. albeit not perfectly and in the way every single member would agree on.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
BrokenBones
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by BrokenBones »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:54 am Well what was the unsubstantiated allegation in question? If they were actually ignoring that rule itd be good to know if your complaint had any merit or not.

From my experience DW was indeed laughably bad at enforcing thier own TOS when i was relatively new to the forum, there were whole rules about certain things being "strictly forbidden" :quote: that every single mod ignored and some mods joined in on. But this has since been rectified as they simply updated the ToS accordingly to allow such behavior. TBH i think the mods are fairly good at enforcing the current ToS now. albeit not perfectly and in the way every single member would agree on.
Agreed... perhaps the occasional blip is down to personal/individual issues that are bound to creep in every now and again.
Radix
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Radix »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:35 pm It's hard to know exactly without further info but on the surface it does appear a bit petty... but it's a bazzin way to win an argument.
Many complaints are about petty things, indeed. The problem is that there are many such things and that there is a pattern.

This is how a toxic environment is created little by little. Just like water drops erode mountains, small nastinesses from moderators erode trust in the forum system, and eventually, in Buddhism.
BrokenBones
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by BrokenBones »

Radix wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:02 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:35 pm It's hard to know exactly without further info but on the surface it does appear a bit petty... but it's a bazzin way to win an argument.
Many complaints are about petty things, indeed. The problem is that there are many such things and that there is a pattern.

This is how a toxic environment is created little by little. Just like water drops erode mountains, small nastinesses from moderators erode trust in the forum system, and eventually, in Buddhism.
None of us are perfect (not even me 😉) this forum is a damn sight more easygoing than it was a few years ago.

Edit... take this thread for instance... a few years ago this discussion would have resulted in a ban for someone.
Radix
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Radix »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:07 am None of us are perfect
As long as the moderators set themselves up as arbiters of what is Dhamma and what isn't Dhamma (and they do so, despite claiming otherwise), then they cannot resort to "nobody's perfect" anymore.

A person can be as flawed, as merely human, as imperfect as they wish. But once they propose to be able to teach others Dhamma, to be able to tell Dhamma from adhamma, then the rules of engagement with them change accordingly.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:20 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:07 am None of us are perfect
As long as the moderators set themselves up as arbiters of what is Dhamma and what isn't Dhamma (and they do so, despite claiming otherwise), then they cannot resort to "nobody's perfect" anymore.

A person can be as flawed, as merely human, as imperfect as they wish. But once they propose to be able to teach others Dhamma, to be able to tell Dhamma from adhamma, then the rules of engagement with them change accordingly.
This relates to an old debate about whether moderators should be allowed to post as well as moderate. Anyone here can teach others Dhamma, and propose to tell Dhamma from adhamma if they so wish. That's entirely separate from moderation. Likewise if people wish to adopt "rules of engagement" regarding others on the forum, they are at liberty to do so.
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Pondera
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Pondera »

jinic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:59 am I was recently banned for 72 hours for complaining to a moderator about harassment on the forum and his unwillingness to enforce 2d of the TOS
TOS wrote:d. Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals or traditions 
he said he doesn't care about that stuff saying
I'm not interested in whether claims are unsubstantiated
Basically the account was suspended for saying that i didn't want to continue participating if no action was taken.

This led to action suspending my account citing a violation 2.h of the TOS
h. Goodbye Cruel Forum posts
I complained to admin and was informed
I've now looked into the matter. The application of the Terms of Service was consistent with the letter of the ToS. Personally, I'd never thought before about that ToS element specifically with regard to PMs, but PMs are indeed under the same rules as the public forum
I think the TOS ought to be updated to reflect this policy becase most people won't think to apply that particular element of TOS to PM correspondence in those circumstances or in general as it obviously wasn't intended to be used in this way hence surprising the admin.
Poppy cock. Jinic tried to crucify me of TOS 3 i and j.

People contributing to this forum are responsible for policing themselves. Whenever a member attempts to police others, and he is not a moderator, he is acting in selfishness.

The moderators are doing just fine. This isn’t a democratic republic in desperate despair from communist influence. And the moderators are not letting the communist influence infiltrate the board.

YOU are the “toxic” condition which erodes the mountains. YOU are the one complaining that people don’t “treat you as you want to be treated” - as if you had a RIGHT to say whatever came to your mind without opposition.

And when you encounter opposition you envoke the ToS as if you had the right to invoke it. Whining, complaining generation who can’t get what they want. It’s pitiful.

The mods are doing just fine. Let them do their job, control your reactions, and for a lack of a better term, be quiet and enjoy the discussion.
It/ That / Their
Radix
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:31 amAnyone here can teach others Dhamma, and propose to tell Dhamma from adhamma if they so wish.

That's entirely separate from moderation.
Not when moderators justify their moderation actions with reference to the Dhamma. Such as when you delete a number of posts and refer people to "Right Speech".
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Sam Vara
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 4:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:31 amAnyone here can teach others Dhamma, and propose to tell Dhamma from adhamma if they so wish.

That's entirely separate from moderation.
Not when moderators justify their moderation actions with reference to the Dhamma. Such as when you delete a number of posts and refer people to "Right Speech".
This is what the ToS says:
Speech and actions are moderated strictly and impartially according to the standards defined in the Terms of Service - not to the standard of Sutta, Vinaya, personal preference, nor any other code and/or standard of conduct.
It is of course quite possible that some posts are not Right Speech and also breach the ToS. But if only Right Speech were allowed here on DW, I suspect there would be fewer posts than there currently are. And, of course,
If you believe acts of moderation are not aligned with the Terms of Service, please engage the Dhamma Wheel complaints procedure.
jinic
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by jinic »

Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:06 am
jinic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:59 am I was recently banned for 72 hours for complaining to a moderator about harassment on the forum and his unwillingness to enforce 2d of the TOS
TOS wrote:d. Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals or traditions 
he said he doesn't care about that stuff saying
I'm not interested in whether claims are unsubstantiated
Basically the account was suspended for saying that i didn't want to continue participating if no action was taken.

This led to action suspending my account citing a violation 2.h of the TOS
h. Goodbye Cruel Forum posts
I complained to admin and was informed
I've now looked into the matter. The application of the Terms of Service was consistent with the letter of the ToS. Personally, I'd never thought before about that ToS element specifically with regard to PMs, but PMs are indeed under the same rules as the public forum
I think the TOS ought to be updated to reflect this policy becase most people won't think to apply that particular element of TOS to PM correspondence in those circumstances or in general as it obviously wasn't intended to be used in this way hence surprising the admin.
Poppy cock. Jinic tried to crucify me of TOS 3 i and j.

People contributing to this forum are responsible for policing themselves. Whenever a member attempts to police others, and he is not a moderator, he is acting in selfishness.

The moderators are doing just fine. This isn’t a democratic republic in desperate despair from communist influence. And the moderators are not letting the communist influence infiltrate the board.

YOU are the “toxic” condition which erodes the mountains. YOU are the one complaining that people don’t “treat you as you want to be treated” - as if you had a RIGHT to say whatever came to your mind without opposition.

And when you encounter opposition you envoke the ToS as if you had the right to invoke it. Whining, complaining generation who can’t get what they want. It’s pitiful.

The mods are doing just fine. Let them do their job, control your reactions, and for a lack of a better term, be quiet and enjoy the discussion.
This isn't a fair assesment.

I didn't even report your posts nor tried to crucify you. I only pointed out that this is supposedly a Theravadin forum which i now believe it is only such "in letter".

It is obvious to me now that the forum is largely secular & cross-traditional and is anti-theravada as in hostile to theravadins & theravada positions.

This should be evident by admins creating threads such as "retrofuturist's refuting of abhidhamma" and not containing attacks on theravada positions in general.

Furthermore, how many people here actually accept the Theravada canon as true texts? Not many..

I've participated expecting that ToS be followed & enforced. Now i just had another 7 day ban after creating this thread, reason given to me by Sam Vara was 'appearing to be challenging a moderator decision', that's not even in the ToS. I notified admin, no answer.

It's a private forum, i get it, but it's obviously not what i signed up for and of course i won't be participating.
Last edited by jinic on Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
I post here to discuss the texts. The views expressed are not necessarily right and i am not going to correct what i've expressed everytime i find mistakes.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Update TOS to reflect the current policy

Post by Sam Vara »

jinic wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:56 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:06 am
jinic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:59 am I was recently banned for 72 hours for complaining to a moderator about harassment on the forum and his unwillingness to enforce 2d of the TOS

he said he doesn't care about that stuff saying


Basically the account was suspended for saying that i didn't want to continue participating if no action was taken.

This led to action suspending my account citing a violation 2.h of the TOS

I complained to admin and was informed


I think the TOS ought to be updated to reflect this policy becase most people won't think to apply that particular element of TOS to PM correspondence in those circumstances or in general as it obviously wasn't intended to be used in this way hence surprising the admin.
Poppy cock. Jinic tried to crucify me of TOS 3 i and j.

People contributing to this forum are responsible for policing themselves. Whenever a member attempts to police others, and he is not a moderator, he is acting in selfishness.

The moderators are doing just fine. This isn’t a democratic republic in desperate despair from communist influence. And the moderators are not letting the communist influence infiltrate the board.

YOU are the “toxic” condition which erodes the mountains. YOU are the one complaining that people don’t “treat you as you want to be treated” - as if you had a RIGHT to say whatever came to your mind without opposition.

And when you encounter opposition you envoke the ToS as if you had the right to invoke it. Whining, complaining generation who can’t get what they want. It’s pitiful.

The mods are doing just fine. Let them do their job, control your reactions, and for a lack of a better term, be quiet and enjoy the discussion.
This isn't a fair assesment.

I didn't even report your posts nor tried to crucify you. I only pointed out that this is supposedly a Theravadin forum which i now believe it is only such in letter".

It is obviously to me now that the forum is largely secular & cross-traditional and is anti-theravada as in hostile to theravadins & theravada positions.

This should be evident by admins creating threads such as "retrofuturist's refuting of abhidhamma" and not containing attacks on theravada positions in general.

Furthermore, how many people here actually accept the Theravada canon as true texts? Not many..

I've participated expecting that ToS be followed & enforced. Now i just had another 7 day ban after creating this thread, reason given to me by Sam Vara was 'appearing to be challenging a moderator decision', that's not even in the ToS. I notified admin, no answer.

It's a private forum, i get it, but it's obviously not what i signed up for and of course i won't be participating.
Please note that you can be suspended for posting things that are not covered by the ToS, and that persistently misrepresenting how the ToS are applied will be one of them.
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