Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
Microdose
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Microdose »

The only thing klesha likes is self view :thumbsup:
SarathW
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:05 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:44 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:12 pm

Or a Haynes car manual. Read it cover to cover and you'd be still no wiser on how to drive a car.
Agree. But a person who reads a car manual will have a better grip on how everything is connected.
You will not be a good mechanic if you have not read the car's manual.
May be you are a good driver but will be stranded on the road one day.
I'd rather be a good driver than a good car mechanic. :smile: But there is nothing in being good at both!
:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:45 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:05 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:44 pm
Agree. But a person who reads a car manual will have a better grip on how everything is connected.
You will not be a good mechanic if you have not read the car's manual.
May be you are a good driver but will be stranded on the road one day.
I'd rather be a good driver than a good car mechanic. :smile: But there is nothing in being good at both!
:twothumbsup:
Analogies are very stretchy 😁

If I'm stranded on the road, I'd rather walk than read up on the conceptual atomism of the internal combustion engine and wonder about 'realities'... I'm sure I'd get there quicker 😉
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Coëmgenu »

You don't need the whole manual to fix the headlight. You need the whole manual if you need to understand everything about the car.

The metaphor is flawed, because Abhidharma-detractors don't think the manual is correct:

"You've got the wrong manual. That's for lawn-mowers. This is a Chevy."

The Abhidharma-detractor does not seriously consider that they might be functionally illiterate concerning the Dhamma, errrrrr... I mean "vehicular repair."

Similarly, the Ābhidhammika does not consider the "sutta-onlyist" literate in the Buddha's Dhamma, despite the fact that literacy in the suttas is literacy in the Dhamma. Hence endless talking past one another.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:22 am You don't need the whole manual to fix the headlight. You need the whole manual if you need to understand everything about the car.

The metaphor is flawed, because Abhidharma-detractors don't think the manual is correct:

"You've got the wrong manual. That's for lawn-mowers. This is a Chevy."

The Abhidharma-detractor does not seriously consider that they might be functionally illiterate concerning the Dhamma, errrrrr... I mean "vehicular repair."

Similarly, the Ābhidhammika does not consider the "sutta-onlyist" literate in the Buddha's Dhamma, despite the fact that literacy in the suttas is literacy in the Dhamma. Hence endless talking past one another.
If I remember correctly in the commentaries it is said the Abhidhamma is for those who require extra clarifications. It is possible to awaken without the Abhidhamma, according to the Abhidhamma, if the person has enough merit and wisdom. What the Abhidhamma is trying to do, apart from organising things and providing a framework for meditation, is to really drive home that there is no atta or substance in experience. That everything, bar nibbana, arises from impersonal and insubstantial conditions that can be barely said to exist at all.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:38 amIt is possible to awaken without the Abhidhamma, according to the Abhidhamma, if the person has enough merit and wisdom.
As it is possible to Awaken with just the vinaya and no suttas. However, doesn't this rub up against a certain Pāli gāthā that basically says that anyone who doesn't know Abhidhamma is of dubious wisdom?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:38 amIt is possible to awaken without the Abhidhamma, according to the Abhidhamma, if the person has enough merit and wisdom.
As it is possible to Awaken with just the vinaya and no suttas. However, doesn't this rub up against a certain Pāli gāthā that basically says that anyone who doesn't know Abhidhamma is of dubious wisdom?
I think they would say the truth awakened to is what the Abhidhamma sets out, and so they too would still be able to preach Dhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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analysis
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by analysis »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:00 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:38 amIt is possible to awaken without the Abhidhamma, according to the Abhidhamma, if the person has enough merit and wisdom.
As it is possible to Awaken with just the vinaya and no suttas. However, doesn't this rub up against a certain Pāli gāthā that basically says that anyone who doesn't know Abhidhamma is of dubious wisdom?
I think they would say the truth awakened to is what the Abhidhamma sets out, and so they too would still be able to preach Dhamma.
According to the classical way, one have to know Abhidhamma either by learning Abhidhamma pitaka or by some other mean like inference from suttas just like venerable Sariputta and Moggallana did with the first verse they heard.
Joe.c
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Joe.c »

Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Moggallana didn't even hear any abhidhamma to enter the stream.

Just one sentence from Ven Assaji, Ven Sariputta entered the stream. Similarly for Ven. Maha Moggallana, same sentence from Ven Sariputta.

Have anyone checked where people who studied/believed Abhidhamma goes? Are they in lower realms or higher realm or become arahant? Better checked before you are dying ASAP. Because going to lower realm is very LONG LONG LONG time. 😁

O btw, I highly doubt Vinaya alone can lead people to reach Arahanthood. Because vinaya is mostly mundane. Once sati/samadhi is fully established, Vinaya just become muted. But the ariyan precepts are different though. 😁

If one pay strict attention to vinaya, One will go to sensual heaven realms. Can't go higher than that.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Mumfie
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Mumfie »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:09 am O btw, I highly doubt Vinaya alone can lead people to reach Arahanthood.
The traditional claim is not that the Vinaya rules are sufficient for arahantship, but that the Vinaya Pitaka is.

You yourself shouldn't have any quarrel with this, for you say:
Joe.c wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:09 amJust one sentence from Ven Assaji, Ven Sariputta entered the stream. Similarly for Ven. Maha Moggallana, same sentence from Ven Sariputta.
The story you're referring to is in fact from the Vinaya Pitaka.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Joe.c
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?

Post by Joe.c »

Mumfie wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:43 am The traditional claim is not that the Vinaya rules are sufficient for arahantship, but that the Vinaya Pitaka is.
Well only with Kd part one can attain Arahanthood. With rules only it is impossible, but i doubt anyone can do that nowadays. Because your mind needs to be in Jhana and hear it from other Ariya.

Reading only won't do it unfortunately. 😅😅😅😁😁
you wrote:You yourself shouldn't have any quarrel with this, for you say:
You misunderstood.

Look above post, someone claim Sariputta know abhidhamma from the verse. This is totally BS.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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