Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
The only thing klesha likes is self view
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
pegembara wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:05 amI'd rather be a good driver than a good car mechanic. But there is nothing in being good at both!SarathW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:44 pmAgree. But a person who reads a car manual will have a better grip on how everything is connected.BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:12 pm
Or a Haynes car manual. Read it cover to cover and you'd be still no wiser on how to drive a car.
You will not be a good mechanic if you have not read the car's manual.
May be you are a good driver but will be stranded on the road one day.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
Analogies are very stretchy
If I'm stranded on the road, I'd rather walk than read up on the conceptual atomism of the internal combustion engine and wonder about 'realities'... I'm sure I'd get there quicker
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
You don't need the whole manual to fix the headlight. You need the whole manual if you need to understand everything about the car.
The metaphor is flawed, because Abhidharma-detractors don't think the manual is correct:
"You've got the wrong manual. That's for lawn-mowers. This is a Chevy."
The Abhidharma-detractor does not seriously consider that they might be functionally illiterate concerning the Dhamma, errrrrr... I mean "vehicular repair."
Similarly, the Ābhidhammika does not consider the "sutta-onlyist" literate in the Buddha's Dhamma, despite the fact that literacy in the suttas is literacy in the Dhamma. Hence endless talking past one another.
The metaphor is flawed, because Abhidharma-detractors don't think the manual is correct:
"You've got the wrong manual. That's for lawn-mowers. This is a Chevy."
The Abhidharma-detractor does not seriously consider that they might be functionally illiterate concerning the Dhamma, errrrrr... I mean "vehicular repair."
Similarly, the Ābhidhammika does not consider the "sutta-onlyist" literate in the Buddha's Dhamma, despite the fact that literacy in the suttas is literacy in the Dhamma. Hence endless talking past one another.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
If I remember correctly in the commentaries it is said the Abhidhamma is for those who require extra clarifications. It is possible to awaken without the Abhidhamma, according to the Abhidhamma, if the person has enough merit and wisdom. What the Abhidhamma is trying to do, apart from organising things and providing a framework for meditation, is to really drive home that there is no atta or substance in experience. That everything, bar nibbana, arises from impersonal and insubstantial conditions that can be barely said to exist at all.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:22 am You don't need the whole manual to fix the headlight. You need the whole manual if you need to understand everything about the car.
The metaphor is flawed, because Abhidharma-detractors don't think the manual is correct:
"You've got the wrong manual. That's for lawn-mowers. This is a Chevy."
The Abhidharma-detractor does not seriously consider that they might be functionally illiterate concerning the Dhamma, errrrrr... I mean "vehicular repair."
Similarly, the Ābhidhammika does not consider the "sutta-onlyist" literate in the Buddha's Dhamma, despite the fact that literacy in the suttas is literacy in the Dhamma. Hence endless talking past one another.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
As it is possible to Awaken with just the vinaya and no suttas. However, doesn't this rub up against a certain Pāli gāthā that basically says that anyone who doesn't know Abhidhamma is of dubious wisdom?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
I think they would say the truth awakened to is what the Abhidhamma sets out, and so they too would still be able to preach Dhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
According to the classical way, one have to know Abhidhamma either by learning Abhidhamma pitaka or by some other mean like inference from suttas just like venerable Sariputta and Moggallana did with the first verse they heard.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:00 pmI think they would say the truth awakened to is what the Abhidhamma sets out, and so they too would still be able to preach Dhamma.
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Moggallana didn't even hear any abhidhamma to enter the stream.
Just one sentence from Ven Assaji, Ven Sariputta entered the stream. Similarly for Ven. Maha Moggallana, same sentence from Ven Sariputta.
Have anyone checked where people who studied/believed Abhidhamma goes? Are they in lower realms or higher realm or become arahant? Better checked before you are dying ASAP. Because going to lower realm is very LONG LONG LONG time.
O btw, I highly doubt Vinaya alone can lead people to reach Arahanthood. Because vinaya is mostly mundane. Once sati/samadhi is fully established, Vinaya just become muted. But the ariyan precepts are different though.
If one pay strict attention to vinaya, One will go to sensual heaven realms. Can't go higher than that.
Just one sentence from Ven Assaji, Ven Sariputta entered the stream. Similarly for Ven. Maha Moggallana, same sentence from Ven Sariputta.
Have anyone checked where people who studied/believed Abhidhamma goes? Are they in lower realms or higher realm or become arahant? Better checked before you are dying ASAP. Because going to lower realm is very LONG LONG LONG time.
O btw, I highly doubt Vinaya alone can lead people to reach Arahanthood. Because vinaya is mostly mundane. Once sati/samadhi is fully established, Vinaya just become muted. But the ariyan precepts are different though.
If one pay strict attention to vinaya, One will go to sensual heaven realms. Can't go higher than that.
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
The traditional claim is not that the Vinaya rules are sufficient for arahantship, but that the Vinaya Pitaka is.
You yourself shouldn't have any quarrel with this, for you say:
The story you're referring to is in fact from the Vinaya Pitaka.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Re: Why Kilesas don't like Abhidhamma?
Well only with Kd part one can attain Arahanthood. With rules only it is impossible, but i doubt anyone can do that nowadays. Because your mind needs to be in Jhana and hear it from other Ariya.
Reading only won't do it unfortunately.
You misunderstood.you wrote:You yourself shouldn't have any quarrel with this, for you say:
Look above post, someone claim Sariputta know abhidhamma from the verse. This is totally BS.