Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Bundokji
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Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

In AN 4.41, the Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
In your understanding, what validates the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding in the quoted sutta?

In other words, what makes arising what it is, rather than being persisting or subsiding?

Thank you :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User13866
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by User13866 »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:42 pm Friends,

In AN 4.41, the Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
In your understanding, what validates the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding in the quoted sutta?

In other words, what makes arising what it is, rather than being persisting or subsiding?
Maybe this answers it for you
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins. What three?

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“These, bhikkhus, are the three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.62/en/bod ... ight=false
Bundokji
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Bundokji »

User13866 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:24 pm
Bundokji wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:42 pm Friends,

In AN 4.41, the Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
In your understanding, what validates the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding in the quoted sutta?

In other words, what makes arising what it is, rather than being persisting or subsiding?
Maybe this answers it for you
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins. What three?

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“These, bhikkhus, are the three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.62/en/bod ... ight=false
Thank you for sharing :anjali:

It is very relevant. The sutta seems to define when past, present and future tense are used through what appears to be tautology and circular reasoning. It does not say why it cannot be otherwise or mixed. For example, knowing that a form ceased, passed or changed can be in the present or in the future. In other words, the tenses "was" "is" and "will be" still apply. Also the given example about nihilists accepting these designations does not explain why the interchangeability of the three cannot be a basis for eternalism or fatalism.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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frank k
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by frank k »

It would help if you explain what's motivating your question.
real Example featuring all 3:
You're experiencing a stream of neutral sensations (a dukkham a sukham vedana), say for a few minutes.
You decide to enter jhāna.
You're thoughts meet the requirement of right resolve,
you deeply pacify/relax the body,
and over the next few seconds then you notice the neutral sensations end, and pleasurable (sukha vedana) arising.
You decide to see how long the sukha vedana persists in this jhāna session.
After an hour, you notice some pain sensation (dukkha vedana) in your knee.
There is sukha vedana in the rest of your body, but some dukkha vedana in the knee area.
You notice the different qualities of the sukha, for example the intensity of it varies in various parts of the body.
These are perceptions that arise, sustain, end (your perceptions of how the sukha differ in quality).
The type of mental fuel you use to sustain this jhāna (for example, using metta, or breath meditation), also gives you vitakka's for you to observe their rise, persisting, and falling away.

Remember, AN 4.41 all four of them are done within a 4 jhānas context.
sampājano is better transladed as lucid-discerning, it corresponds with the pañña faculty, in verb form, it's pajānati. You know when your mind has greed or doesn't, you know when it's in samādhi or isn't, and you know when different vedana, sañña, vitakka are rising, persisting, falling.
You're not just 'alert' to them, you know them with the wisdom faculty, and you're not just 'situationally aware'.





Bundokji wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:42 pm Friends,

In AN 4.41, the Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
In your understanding, what validates the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding in the quoted sutta?

In other words, what makes arising what it is, rather than being persisting or subsiding?

Thank you :anjali:
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Bundokji
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Bundokji »

frank k wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:26 pm It would help if you explain what's motivating your question.
real Example featuring all 3:
You're experiencing a stream of neutral sensations (a dukkham a sukham vedana), say for a few minutes.
You decide to enter jhāna.
You're thoughts meet the requirement of right resolve,
you deeply pacify/relax the body,
and over the next few seconds then you notice the neutral sensations end, and pleasurable (sukha vedana) arising.
You decide to see how long the sukha vedana persists in this jhāna session.
After an hour, you notice some pain sensation (dukkha vedana) in your knee.
There is sukha vedana in the rest of your body, but some dukkha vedana in the knee area.
You notice the different qualities of the sukha, for example the intensity of it varies in various parts of the body.
These are perceptions that arise, sustain, end (your perceptions of how the sukha differ in quality).
The type of mental fuel you use to sustain this jhāna (for example, using metta, or breath meditation), also gives you vitakka's for you to observe their rise, persisting, and falling away.

Remember, AN 4.41 all four of them are done within a 4 jhānas context.
sampājano is better transladed as lucid-discerning, it corresponds with the pañña faculty, in verb form, it's pajānati. You know when your mind has greed or doesn't, you know when it's in samādhi or isn't, and you know when different vedana, sañña, vitakka are rising, persisting, falling.
You're not just 'alert' to them, you know them with the wisdom faculty, and you're not just 'situationally aware'.
Thank you frank :anjali:

If i may begin from where you ended: situational awareness makes the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding interchangeable. When experience is perceived to be taking place between "birth and death" i.e situational awareness, it makes it impossible to distinguish sankhata dhamma (the Buddha's utterances) from Papañca (sophistry).

Also AN 4.41 makes an interesting distinction between the Jhanas and the ending of effluents. A pleasant abiding in the here and now as a result of mastering the Jhanas does not necessarily mean the ending of effluents. If we try to bridge the gap between vipassana and samatha to determine what would constitute samma samadhi, then vipa-sati seems to be a necessary condition. Experience as known through vipa-sati would not be perceived as between birth and death, but as a re-play between two lives, akin to a dead person having his/her actions replayed to them (literally). Action would no longer be perceived as a choice, but as kammic action where the fourth type is prioritized/the forerunner.

[Uttara the deva's son:]

"Life is swept along,
next-to-nothing its span.
For one swept on by aging
no shelters exist.
Perceiving this danger in death,
one should do deeds of merit
that bring about bliss."

[The Buddha:]

"Life is swept along,
next-to-nothing its span.
For one swept on by aging
no shelters exist.
Perceiving this danger in death,
one should drop the world's bait
and look for peace."
Such a view will make the four types of concentrations taught in AN 4.41 understandable in reverse as manifestations of the gradual path:

1- The fourth type of concentration is the end of clinging to the five aggregates, or attaining the middle path between two lives.
2- The third type of concentration is the ability to distinguish dhamma from Papañca, thus able to use the three pathways of language blamelessly (SN22.62).
3- The second type of concentration is eliminating the lapse of time during sleeping time as a condition to misconceiving experience (concentrating on the perception of day, regardless of whether it’s night or day)
4- The attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling as a culmination of the gradual path through developing the four Jhanas.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
xun2x
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by xun2x »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:42 pm In your understanding, what validates the sequence of arising, persisting and subsiding in the quoted sutta?
In other words, what makes arising what it is, rather than being persisting or subsiding?
Thank you :anjali:
The different between the third and forth samadhi are :
1. Arising, persisting and subsiding.
2. Arising and falling away.

I think both in context pancakanda.

If mind, only see all phenomena is empty, there is no pancanivarana anymore, in whatever posture. Is it also jhana ?
The third samadhi is not a complete one. When one practise to see thoughts as thoughts without color or essence, it will fit the third and forth samadhi.

What do you think ?
Bundokji
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Bundokji »

xun2x wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:43 am The different between the third and forth samadhi are :
1. Arising, persisting and subsiding.
2. Arising and falling away.

I think both in context pancakanda.

If mind, only see all phenomena is empty, there is no pancanivarana anymore, in whatever posture. Is it also jhana ?
The third samadhi is not a complete one. When one practise to see thoughts as thoughts without color or essence, it will fit the third and forth samadhi.

What do you think ?
I think it is the fourth samadhi that is explained in the context of pancakanda, not the third one.

I think feeling and perception translate into a "vantage point" which thought conveys to a third party. I think the utility of mindfulness and alertness is to prevent it from slipping into sectarianism as per Ud 6.4.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Enam
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Enam »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:42 pm In AN 4.41, the Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
The Buddha didn't teach this. The Buddha taught:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & clear comprehension? There is the case where feelings are understood to the monk as they arise, understood as they persist, understood as they subside. Perceptions are understood to him as they arise, understood as they persist, understood as they subside. Thoughts are understood to him as they arise, understood as they persist, understood as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & clear comprehension.
For example, the breathing tranquilizes & the feeling of rapture arises. It is understood the rapture has arisen caused by the calming of breathing. Or thought arises. It is understood that thought arises caused by a certain feeling & perception. This is what the Buddha taught. The Buddha did not use the word "known" here.
Bundokji
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Bundokji »

Enam wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:20 am For example, the breathing tranquilizes & the feeling of rapture arises. It is understood the rapture has arisen caused by the calming of breathing. Or thought arises. It is understood that thought arises caused by a certain feeling & perception. This is what the Buddha taught. The Buddha did not use the word "known" here.
This was Ven. Thanissaro's translation. The emphasis on feeling, perception and thought in this type of samadhi could be relevant to what arises from Nirodha Samapatt, of which gnosis is not guaranteed as per AN 5:166, hence the term "known" is paralleled with arising, persisting and ceasing, unlike the fourth samadhi which consists of arising and falling away only with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. In other words, without persistence, there is nothing to be known.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Enam
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Enam »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:20 pm This was Ven. Thanissaro's translation. The emphasis on feeling, perception and thought in this type of samadhi could be relevant to what arises from Nirodha Samapatt...
The passage quoted is about mindfulness & clear-comprehension and is not about Nirodha Samapatti. Nirodha Samapatti passages are in suttas such as MN 43 & MN 44 and they don't use the same terminology. MN 43 & MN 44 refer to "emerging" from Nirodha Samapatti and not "arising" from Nirodha Samapatti. Mindfulness & clear-comprehension is something very basic, from the start of the path to the end of the path. AN 4.41 is about samadhi development that perfects mindfulness & clear-comprehension so when feelings, perceptions & thoughts arise, remain & subside there is no craving, attachment & wrong views towards those feelings, perceptions & thoughts. For example, rapture is a feeling arising in jhana. It is understood how these feelings arose from practicing the path properly. Then when the feeling of rapture remains, it is understood the feelings that remain will eventually be impermanent & are not-self. Then when the feelings subside, it is understood it is their nature to subside therefore mindfulness & clear-comprehension prevents any dejection/sorrow towards their subsiding. This is what the Buddha was teaching here. Some translators such as Thanissaro have translated the 3rd samadhi development in AN 4.41 to sound like it is vipassana but AN 4.41 is clear that it is the 4th samadhi development that is vipassana (observing arising & falling). Regards :)
Bundokji
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Re: Concentration that when developed & pursued leads to mindfulness & alertness

Post by Bundokji »

Enam wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:00 am
Bundokji wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:20 pm This was Ven. Thanissaro's translation. The emphasis on feeling, perception and thought in this type of samadhi could be relevant to what arises from Nirodha Samapatt...
The passage quoted is about mindfulness & clear-comprehension and is not about Nirodha Samapatti. Nirodha Samapatti passages are in suttas such as MN 43 & MN 44 and they don't use the same terminology. MN 43 & MN 44 refer to "emerging" from Nirodha Samapatti and not "arising" from Nirodha Samapatti. Mindfulness & clear-comprehension is something very basic, from the start of the path to the end of the path. AN 4.41 is about samadhi development that perfects mindfulness & clear-comprehension so when feelings, perceptions & thoughts arise, remain & subside there is no craving, attachment & wrong views towards those feelings, perceptions & thoughts. For example, rapture is a feeling arising in jhana. It is understood how these feelings arose from practicing the path properly. Then when the feeling of rapture remains, it is understood the feelings that remain will eventually be impermanent & are not-self. Then when the feelings subside, it is understood it is their nature to subside therefore mindfulness & clear-comprehension prevents any dejection/sorrow towards their subsiding. This is what the Buddha was teaching here. Some translators such as Thanissaro have translated the 3rd samadhi development in AN 4.41 to sound like it is vipassana but AN 4.41 is clear that it is the 4th samadhi development that is vipassana (observing arising & falling). Regards :)
You are right. It is usually referred to as "emerging" from Nirodha Samapatti rather than arising. I thought of it as "arising" because AN5.166 indicates that it does not necessarily lead to gnosis, and could result in the host of mind-made god. I do not understand the exact difference between emerging and arising except that Nirodha is knowledge of the third noble truth, whereas arising, persisting and subsiding is knowledge of the first and second noble truths which ariyas also have perfect knowledge about.

I also admit that i think of the four samadhis in terms of progress in insight/vipassana. The first samadhi is about Jhanas, when translated in terms of insight, it is disillusionment. The second samadhi sounds similar to the four basis of psychic powers. I thought of the third samadhi in terms of Nirodha Samapatti because the non-returners have not uprooted ignorance yet, which is the highest fetter, but the meaning of non-returning seems to indicate ending traceability based on the mind-body conundrum . The ending of effluents sound similar to the exclamation accompanied by ending craving and the opening of the dhamma eye, which only include arising and falling away without persistence.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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