SA 1246

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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SA 1246

Post by Ceisiwr »

If anyone could help with a translation of SA 1246, the parallel to AN 3.101, it would be greatly appreciated.
「如是,淨心進向比丘麁煩惱纏、惡不善業、諸惡邪見漸斷令滅,如彼生金,淘去剛石堅塊。

「復次,淨心進向比丘除次麁垢,欲覺、恚覺、害覺,如彼生金除麁沙礫。

「復次,淨心進向比丘次除細垢,謂親里覺、人眾覺、生天覺,思惟除滅,如彼生金除去塵垢、細沙、黑土。

「復次,淨心進向比丘有善法覺,思惟除滅,令心清淨,猶如生金除去金色相似之垢,令其純淨。

「復次,比丘於諸三昧有行所持,猶如池水周匝岸持,為法所持,不得寂靜勝妙,不得息樂,盡諸有漏。如彼金師、金師弟子陶鍊生金,除諸垢穢,不輕、不軟、不發光澤,屈伸斷絕,不得隨意成莊嚴具。

「復次,比丘得諸三昧,不為有行所持,得寂靜勝妙,得息樂道,一心一意,盡諸有漏。如鍊金師、鍊金師弟子陶鍊生金,令其輕軟、不斷、光澤,屈伸隨意。

「復次,比丘離諸覺觀,乃至得第二、第三、第四禪。如是正受,純一清淨,離諸煩惱,柔軟真實不動。於彼彼入處,欲求作證悉能得證。如彼金師陶鍊生金,極令輕軟、光澤、不斷,任作何器,隨意所欲。如是,比丘三昧正受,乃至於諸入處悉能得證。」

佛說此經已,時諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。
https://suttacentral.net/sa1246/lzh/tai ... ight=false
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


Sāmaññaphalasutta
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nirodh27
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Re: SA 1246

Post by nirodh27 »

Here it is a mediocre translation. Unfortunately indonesian is not there, because with that you can use Deepl and you have it almost perfect. This is Viet from google translate which btw can give u a lot of hints paired with Deepl chinese. Since the viet should be modern, it shouldn't be impossible to clarify terms like "contraband".
At one time, the Buddha was living in the royal city, in the residence of a goldsmith. At that time, the Blessed One said to the bhikkhus:

“Like a man casting gold, he gathers sand and soil and puts it in a trough. Then flush with water. The gross and unclean things, and the broken stones, and the solid earth, are carried away by the water. But the coarse grains of sand are still sticky. Again use water to flush; Those coarse grains of sand follow the water. After that, there was pure gold, but it was still stuck with fine sand and black earth. Using water to flush again, fine sand grains and black soil follow the water. Then there is pure pure gold without impurities. But still very small grumpy, yellow. Next, the goldsmith put it in the furnace, indented the base tube to increase the fire so that it dissolved into a solution, removing all the grime. But raw gold is still not light, not soft, not glowing; folded, pulled out, still broken. The goldsmith or the gold-smelting disciple must put it back in the furnace, indent the pedestal for the fire to rise, turn it over, turn it over to smelt it, and finally, the new raw gold will be soft, shiny, folded, pulled, and not broken. break, at will, make all kinds of jewelry such as rubs, earrings, rings, bracelets.

“It is the same with bhikkhus who proceed in the direction of purification of mind. The gross afflictions are tightly entangled, the evil unwholesome karma, the evil views, are gradually eliminated and destroyed; like pure gold, must remove the crushed stone, solid earth.
“Again, the Bhikkhu-stilts proceed to purify the mind and then give up gross irritations such as sensuality, lust, and harm; as raw gold is removed coarse sand.
“Again, the bhikkhus move towards purifying their mind and continue to eliminate subtle irritants such as the perception of kinship, the perception of human beings, the perception of rebirth in the gods, by thinking that excludes them; Like pure gold, dust, fine sand, and black soil are removed.
“Again, bhikkhus move towards purifying their mind, when they have the perception of good dharma, by thinking they can destroy it, for the mind to be pure; Like pure gold, the impurities are removed and the color is like pure gold, to become pure.

“Again, a bhikkhu is to the samadhis sustained by samādhi, just as a pond is surrounded by a bank. Still maintained by the dharma, it is not quiet, won't be wondrous, can't get the peace of only instant, eradicate the contraband; like goldsmiths and teachers filtering raw gold, removing dirt, but it is not light, not soft, has not become shiny, bent and broken, unable to make jewelry as desired.

“Again, a bhikkhu, having attained the samadhis, without being sustained by the formations of existence, attains sublime serenity, attains the path leading to the happiness of samadhi, is single-minded, and annihilates all beings. contraband; like goldsmiths and teachers refining and refining raw gold until it is light, soft, and shiny, bending at will to pull it out.
“Again, bhikkhus leave the senses of contemplation (this is likely Vitakka&Vicara in the deepl Chinese is: the bhikkhu is free from all awareness and observation), until they attain the second, third, and fourth meditation; Such right feeling is pure and pure, free from defilements, pliable, true, and unmoving. If you want to authorize the other country, all can be authored; Like a goldsmith, refines and refines pure gold to a light, soft, shiny, and unbreakable level, making whatever you want. In the same way, bhikkhus who have entered the samadhi, etc., up to all the states of origin, can be obtained."
It seems that SA 1246 roughly follows what is there in MA102. Pre-jhanic reflection, Jhanic reflection not automatic with effort, Jhanic reflection automatic without effort with a good u-turn with renunciation, then access to second jhana that has an "unmoving" nature or something like that. It is actually another suttas that seems to "forget" first jhana like MA102. Unlikely by accident, but because first jhana have that nature. This also helps to reinforce how first-jhanic thought is seen differently from many commentators: there are actually 2 kind of thoughts, one more reflective and with effort, one more automatic, spontaneous and serene. It is unclear if first jhana is only the second-one or the first. It makes little difference though as long as those states are recognized. It is a good finding.
After the Buddha finished speaking this sutra, the bhikkhus, hearing what the Buddha taught, joyfully served it.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: SA 1246

Post by Coëmgenu »

Very tricky. There's enough in it that I'm unsure of that I've implemented a new system of caveats. I'm putting everything I'm reasonably unsure of in red. Phrases I am unsure will also be accompanied by (???), and single words I am unsure of will be accompanied by (?). Notes will be accompanied by ***. There is a particular area that is very confusing, and I've just had to put "..." there.

It looks like "adhicitta" has been rendered in the Chinese translation as "pure citta" (淨心). Odd.
Thus, the monk who practices toward entrance into the pure citta is bound by coarse defilements. He has wicked and unskilful karmas(?). His many wicked and wrong views are gradually severed and are made to disappear (entirely). It is like the production of gold. The panning removes the hard stones and coarse soil. Moreover, the monk who practices toward entrance into the pure citta renounces the secondary coarse impurities, (meaning) sensual thoughts, angry thoughts, and cruel thoughts. It is like the production of gold. The coarse grains of sand are removed. Moreover, the monk who practices toward entrance into the pure citta renounces subtle defilements. That is to say, (he renounces) domestic thoughts, thoughts of crowds(?), and thoughts of heavenly birth. The contemplative renounces and destroys (these thoughts). It is like the production of gold. The dust, filth, fine grains of sand, and black soil are removed. Moreover, the monk who practices toward entrance into the pure citta has thoughts of the wholesome dharmas ... (思惟除滅 attention is removed???) ... and the citta is made peaceful and pure. Similarly, it is like the production of gold. The gold-resembling impurities are removed, and it is made pure and unmixed (i.e. unmixed with non-gold elements). Moreover, the monk has many samādhis, (and) they are supported by the saṃskāra(???)***.
*** this, namely "(being) supported by the saṃskāra," seems to be some sort of very eccentric, if not downright bizarre, rendering of what we know as the Pāli term "sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato." From my perspective, it looks entirely garbled. I am not very fluent in the precise meaning of this Pāli term, however, so my judgement here is insufficient to form a reliable conclusion regarding it.
It is like water in a pond encircled and supported by the shore. The dharmas are supported (???), but he does not attain the tranquil, still, sublime, and wonderful (state). He does not attain the peaceful bliss that eliminates all of the āsravas. It is like (the matter of) that master of gold. The gold-master and his apprentice smelt it in a crucible to produce gold. They dispel all of the impurities, yet it is not maneuverable(?), not pliable, and it does not shine with brilliant light. It bends and breaks. It cannot become the desired adornments. Moreover, the monk has many samādhis, (and) they are not supported by the saṃskāra(???). He attains the tranquil, still, sublime, and wonderful (state). He attains the peaceful bliss of the path, with one mind and one thought, eliminating all of the āsravas. It is like the smelting of the gold-master. The gold-master and his apprentice smelt it (i.e. the gold) in a crucible to produce the gold. It is made maneuverable(?) and pliable. It does not break. It shines with light. It is bent and stretched as desired. Moreover, the monk parts (ways) with the many examinations and reflections and even attains the second, third, and the fourth dhyānas. Thus, the samāpattis are unmixed, peaceful, and pure, and they part (ways) with the afflictions. They are soft, pliable, authentic, and immoveable. With regards to this or that āyatana, if he desires to seek to make a realization of his comprehension, he is able to attain that realization(???)***.
***this whole sentence, comprised of "於彼彼入處欲求作證悉能得證," is highly speculative on my part.
It is like that gold-master smelting in the crucible to produce the gold. In the end, it is made maneuverable and pliable. It shines with light. It does not break. It can be relied upon to serve as whichever implement he wishes it be. Thus, the monk comprehends the samādhis, the samāpattis, and even the many āyatanas, and can attain realization (of them).
I'll tag C.D. Patton so that he can take a look at it. He doesn't post often, but did offer me some private feedback on a tentative translation (and I forget to thank or even respond! Sorry!) so he comes here occasionally at least.
cdpatton wrote:
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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Ceisiwr
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Re: SA 1246

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:33 pm ...
Thanks a lot. I've also sent him a PM on SuttaCentral. Hopefully he can check in.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


Sāmaññaphalasutta
cdpatton
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Re: SA 1246

Post by cdpatton »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:33 pm Very tricky. There's enough in it that I'm unsure of that I've implemented a new system of caveats. I'm putting everything I'm reasonably unsure of in red. Phrases I am unsure will also be accompanied by (???), and single words I am unsure of will be accompanied by (?). Notes will be accompanied by ***. There is a particular area that is very confusing, and I've just had to put "..." there.
This is a great sutra. The gold analogy for refining the mind is, I think, the source of the "naturally luminous mind" idea, though it would have been more properly the "naturally lustrous mind" that's beautiful and malleable only after it's purified.

Here's my thoughts on some of the places you had trouble or doubts:

惡不善業 is straightforward: Bad (or evil) and unskillful deeds. AN 3.101 mentions physical, verbal, and mental deeds. This combines them all.

親里覺、人眾覺、生天覺 = thoughts of family relations, human communities (assemblies), and birth in heaven. I guess the second two are generally about being in the human world or the heavenly one.

The verbs after the thoughts (思惟除滅) are awkward without objects following them, but they must refer back to the thoughts just mentioned. Perhaps the sentence is being translated in Indic SOV order instead of proper Chinese SVO order. It's fairly common in Agama translations. The monk "contemplates and eliminates [those thoughts]."

I think 有行 is sa-samskara like in the Pali, but the other stuff in the parallel is missing. There's just the verb "to keep/maintain." I tend to agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi that sa-samskara must mean something like "with mental effort" or "training," which are senses that samskara has in non-Buddhist Sanskrit (press "Translate" to see all the readings). The really interesting thing is that it can refer to refining and purification, which might mean there's some wordplay happening here in the original Indic language.

I'd translate 比丘於諸三昧有行所持 as "the monk's samadhis are maintained by his mental effort." 比丘得諸三昧,不為有行所持 would be "the monk attains samadhis but doesn't [need to] maintain them with mental effort."

覺觀 are indeed vitarka and vicara, however a person prefers to translate them.

於彼彼入處欲求作證悉能得證 is a bit awkward and complex. 證 would be something like P. sakkhi, i.e., direct experience. So, the sentence is saying he can accomplish any meditative experience or attainment that he puts his mind to doing. Maybe 入處 (ayatana) refers specifically to the formless samadhis? It's interesting that there's no mention of abhiññas here, so that leaves the door open to other things like the eight liberations. "Whatever abode he wants to experience/realize, he can experience/realize them all."

光澤 means shiny or glistening like something wet or metallic. So, with gold, it means the gold has a shiny luster like after it's been refined, melted, and cooled in a mold.
Supposing is good, but finding out is better.
- Mark Twain
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Coëmgenu
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Re: SA 1246

Post by Coëmgenu »

:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

:anjali:

In the Pāli, there's a term translated as "workable." My strange "maneuverable" reading was created by trying to force the Chinese to read as much like the Pāli as possible (which is, self-admittedly, never sound practice), as the word used in the translation seems very odd. How did I "force" it? By cherry-picking senses from the dictionary to try to find something even vaguely like "workable." I wasn't kidding when I said "is never sound practice."

How would you navigate it, having much more experience in navigating these things? Have I missed a forest for trees? Is "workable" one of the senses for the Chinese and I just missed it in the dictionary?

Also, there's an issue with how I've rendered the end. It says "pliable" and then "immoveable." Those two aren't coherent with one another. Likely it's supposed to be something like "unshakeable" instead of "immoveable."
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
cdpatton
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Re: SA 1246

Post by cdpatton »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:10 pm In the Pāli, there's a term translated as "workable." My strange "maneuverable" reading was created by trying to force the Chinese to read as much like the Pāli as possible (which is, self-admittedly, never sound practice), as the word used in the translation seems very odd. How did I "force" it? By cherry-picking senses from the dictionary to try to find something even vaguely like "workable." I wasn't kidding when I said "is never sound practice."

How would you navigate it, having much more experience in navigating these things? Have I missed a forest for trees? Is "workable" one of the senses for the Chinese and I just missed it in the dictionary?
I take it you are referring to 輕軟 in the Chinese? I think the problem may have been that the Chinese translator didn't know a good word for malleable. E. malleable comes from L. malleare, so it originally meant "hammerable," i.e., workable by a smith. That's a nice match to P. kammaniya in that context.

輕's basic meaning is "light," but it's often used to refer to human behavior instead of the physical weight of something. Moving smoothly and calmly is 輕, which would mean something like "easygoing" in English. Maneuverable could definitely translate it in the right context. So, maybe here it was an awkward word choice for workable. It's easy for the smith to work with.
Also, there's an issue with how I've rendered the end. It says "pliable" and then "immoveable." Those two aren't coherent with one another. Likely it's supposed to be something like "unshakeable" instead of "immoveable."
I would read 不動 as imperturbable or unshakeable, which I guess is meant to be the psychological parallel to refined gold not being brittle (不斷). I notice that the refined mind is called 柔軟 instead of 輕軟, too.
Supposing is good, but finding out is better.
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asahi
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Re: SA 1246

Post by asahi »

cdpatton wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:54 pm I take it you are referring to 輕軟 in the Chinese? I think the problem may have been that the Chinese translator didn't know a good word for malleable.
Hi , you might be overlooked .
The translator was not a chinese .
Guṇabhadra
求那跋陀羅

Ps . 輕 & 軟 light & soft

復次,比丘離諸覺、觀……乃至得第二、第三、第四禪,如是正受,純一、清淨,離諸煩惱,柔軟、真實、不動,於彼彼入處欲求作證悉能得證,如彼金師陶鍊生金,極令、光澤、不斷,任作何器,隨意所欲(pliable),如是,比丘!三昧正受……乃至於諸入處,悉能得證。」
  佛說此經已,時諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。
Peace is more precious than triumph
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