Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mike quoted it for you instead.

What on earth is a physiology sutta?
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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mjaviem
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by mjaviem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:29 pm Mike quoted it for you instead.
...
No, he quoted a sutta paragraph about a Noble disciple abandoning the underlying tendencies.
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:29 pm ...
What on earth is a physiology sutta?
I don't know either! You tell me. It seems to be the suttas you mentioned that are about physiology topics
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:01 am ... no responsivity. The Buddhas and Arhats respond to stimuli...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by Coëmgenu »

"The Holy Life has been fulfilled" refers to Arhatva/Arhathood. This is a stock phrase associated with Arhats in the Pāli suttas. Why? They are the only ones who have fulfilled it.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:41 pmI don't know either! You tell me. It seems to be the suttas you mentioned that are about physiology topics
I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you are talking about.

"Responsivity" is an ability or tendency to respond. Do you think of this as a "physiological" word? :?

For instance, when Venerable Ānanda asks the Buddha a question, the Buddha responds. This is an instance of responsivity. What "physiological" business are you on about? I certainly didn't bring anything up regarding physiology.

If we can sort out whatever misunderstanding it is on your end that has caused you to starting thinking about "physiology suttas," then maybe we can sort out what's making you claim that Arhats don't have vedanā, contrary to the Dhamma as attested to in the Pāli suttas.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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mjaviem
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by mjaviem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:43 pm "The Holy Life has been fulfilled" refers to Arhatva/Arhathood. This is a stock phrase associated with Arhats in the Pāli suttas. Why? They are the only ones who have fulfilled it.
Yes, you can read about the abandonment of the underlying tendencies in MN148, Chachakka Sutta. Keep in mind what I said in that other thread: That the Arahant does not abandon but abides having abandon.
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:50 pm ... "Responsivity" is an ability or tendency to respond. Do you think of this as a "physiological" word? :?

For instance, when Venerable Ānanda asks the Buddha a question, the Buddha responds. This is an instance of responsivity. What "physiological" business are you on about? I certainly didn't bring anything up regarding physiology.

If we can sort out whatever misunderstanding it is on your end that has caused you to starting thinking about "physiology suttas," then maybe we can sort out what's making you claim that Arhats don't have vedanā, contrary to the Dhamma as attested to in the Pāli suttas.
Alright, my mistake. It seems when you speak about "responding to stimuli" you don't speak about physiology matters but about a dialogue between teachers. The cessation of vedana is attested in the Pali suttas. Also enlightenment is attested in the Pali suttas. Also it's attested that this is in the here and now. It is also attested that the teachings concern solely with dukkha and the ending of dukkha.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:27 pmThe cessation of vedana is attested in the Pali suttas.
Not for the "alive and kicking," to use your terminology, Arhat who is not abiding in deep samādhi.

If you know how to read the Pāli suttas, the scripture that Mike gave you literally says that Arhats experience vedanā. There's no wiggle room for you to twist its words in this way or that way to make it say what you'd have it say.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
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mjaviem
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by mjaviem »

Sure. thanks.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by Coëmgenu »

You're welcome. It is only the Arhat for which the Holy Life has been fulfilled. It doesn't refer to stream-entrants. The Holy Life isn't fulfilled for them. For them, there's "work" left to do.

It would be nicer to say "you're welcome" to someone communicating in good faith. This "Sure. thanks." is basically what Cappuccino does when they can't carry a conversation anymore, are giving up in exasperation due to having their ātmavāda rejected, and subsequently say "K." or when the Amidist troll who used to frequent here used to give up and post an image of the Dalai Lama with the text "Cool story, bro!"

Hopefully when we next engage with each other you will have grown up some and will be more prepared to actually reckon with that the texts you claim to follow actually say.
The many dharmas are alien to existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan is without imputations of existence and nonexistence.
The Āryan, as he is alien to the imputations, cognitions, and views of these two, in this sense is known as "mindless."
The mind of a Buddha is alien to all things:
the skandhas, the dhātus, the āyatanas, the grasper, the grasped.
His pure dharmas are anātmaka, like his unarisen mind.
Thus it is said: "the Great Void of Self-Nature," "the Abyss of Prajñā,"
"the Ocean of Nothing," and "the Eyeless Vision"
samsarayoga
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Re: Does the eye see? "Mūlavijñāna" in Mahāsāṃghika and Cittamātra Thought

Post by samsarayoga »

You might want to lookup "qualia". It's explained in the 5 aggregates. The eye is part of the 2nd aggregate, the 5 senses and neural system. It's how we communicate with, and navigate through the (external) world. The 3rd aggregate is how we interpret the inputs of the eye. Everything has been explained in the suttas. Not exactly sure how the 3rd and 4th aggregate differ. I think the 4th aggregate is the sentient mind, while the 3rd aggregate resemble instinct.
samsara is the eternal master
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