Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

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Milinda
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Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Milinda »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthika

Tashi Delek, Sawasdekaap, Hello to everyone.

I've been studying pali language for a while now.
I'd like to ask you about the word "heretic" that in some buddhist books or writters appears. For example in Nagarjuna teachings.

I think the word translated as "heretic" is Tirthika. And I think also is a word that was in early buddhist days to describe people who confronted Buddha and his Sassanas from a Sassatavada or ucchedavada perspective.

According to wikipedia

Tīrthika (Sanskrit: tīrthika, Pali: titthiya, "ford-maker," meaning one who is attempting to cross the stream of saṃsāra[1]) in Indian philosophy is a general term referring to non-Buddhists in general

The question would be; has it a 'negative' meaning just like Kafir in islamic perspective? Or is just a word to describe a person in an state of Avidya (ignorance).

Thank u all
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Sam Vara »

Rinpoche wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:07 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthika

Tashi Delek, Sawasdekaap, Hello to everyone.

I've been studying pali language for a while now.
I'd like to ask you about the word "heretic" that in some buddhist books or writters appears. For example in Nagarjuna teachings.

I think the word translated as "heretic" is Tirthika. And I think also is a word that was in early buddhist days to describe people who confronted Buddha and his Sassanas from a Sassatavada or ucchedavada perspective.

According to wikipedia

Tīrthika (Sanskrit: tīrthika, Pali: titthiya, "ford-maker," meaning one who is attempting to cross the stream of saṃsāra[1]) in Indian philosophy is a general term referring to non-Buddhists in general

The question would be; has it a 'negative' meaning just like Kafir in islamic perspective? Or is just a word to describe a person in an state of Avidya (ignorance).

Thank u all
Yes, in Pali it is titthiya. I think tirthika might be Sanskrit.

It means something like "sectarian". (A tittha is a sect, a group with a different path or approach to the Buddha). It is, as far as I know, only used in a negative sense, as in "people who are getting it wrong, or being led astray". See this sutta:
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/suja ... ript=latin
Milinda
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Milinda »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:32 pm
Rinpoche wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:07 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthika

Tashi Delek, Sawasdekaap, Hello to everyone.

I've been studying pali language for a while now.
I'd like to ask you about the word "heretic" that in some buddhist books or writters appears. For example in Nagarjuna teachings.

I think the word translated as "heretic" is Tirthika. And I think also is a word that was in early buddhist days to describe people who confronted Buddha and his Sassanas from a Sassatavada or ucchedavada perspective.

According to wikipedia

Tīrthika (Sanskrit: tīrthika, Pali: titthiya, "ford-maker," meaning one who is attempting to cross the stream of saṃsāra[1]) in Indian philosophy is a general term referring to non-Buddhists in general

The question would be; has it a 'negative' meaning just like Kafir in islamic perspective? Or is just a word to describe a person in an state of Avidya (ignorance).

Thank u all
Yes, in Pali it is titthiya. I think tirthika might be Sanskrit.

It means something like "sectarian". (A tittha is a sect, a group with a different path or approach to the Buddha). It is, as far as I know, only used in a negative sense, as in "people who are getting it wrong, or being led astray". See this sutta:
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/suja ... ript=latin
So in a close meaning a Tithiya it could be a muslim or a christian too, yes?
But only the ones who want to "deny" the doctrine I guess, not the ones who were born in that paths.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Coëmgenu »

I wonder if it has anything to do with the word "Tīrthaṅkara." The Jains use that word in place of something like "Tathāgata." Jains would likely be "heretics" to the early Buddhist community.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Sam Vara »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:09 pm I wonder if it has anything to do with the word "Tīrthaṅkara." The Jains use that word in place of something like "Tathāgata." Jains would likely be "heretics" to the early Buddhist community.
That would make sense, if it means "sect maker", i.e. a founder of a tradition. "Kara" is I think "doer" or "maker".
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Sam Vara »

Rinpoche wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:57 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:32 pm
Rinpoche wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:07 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthika

Tashi Delek, Sawasdekaap, Hello to everyone.

I've been studying pali language for a while now.
I'd like to ask you about the word "heretic" that in some buddhist books or writters appears. For example in Nagarjuna teachings.

I think the word translated as "heretic" is Tirthika. And I think also is a word that was in early buddhist days to describe people who confronted Buddha and his Sassanas from a Sassatavada or ucchedavada perspective.

According to wikipedia

Tīrthika (Sanskrit: tīrthika, Pali: titthiya, "ford-maker," meaning one who is attempting to cross the stream of saṃsāra[1]) in Indian philosophy is a general term referring to non-Buddhists in general

The question would be; has it a 'negative' meaning just like Kafir in islamic perspective? Or is just a word to describe a person in an state of Avidya (ignorance).

Thank u all
Yes, in Pali it is titthiya. I think tirthika might be Sanskrit.

It means something like "sectarian". (A tittha is a sect, a group with a different path or approach to the Buddha). It is, as far as I know, only used in a negative sense, as in "people who are getting it wrong, or being led astray". See this sutta:
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/suja ... ript=latin
So in a close meaning a Tithiya it could be a muslim or a christian too, yes?
But only the ones who want to "deny" the doctrine I guess, not the ones who were born in that paths.
Good question, but I guess the answer is a matter of how far you want to apply the word.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Coëmgenu »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:09 pm I wonder if it has anything to do with the word "Tīrthaṅkara." The Jains use that word in place of something like "Tathāgata." Jains would likely be "heretics" to the early Buddhist community.
That would make sense, if it means "sect maker", i.e. a founder of a tradition. "Kara" is I think "doer" or "maker".
I think it means "ford-weaver," but I can't remember where I read that, and it might be wrong.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Sam Vara »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:09 pm I wonder if it has anything to do with the word "Tīrthaṅkara." The Jains use that word in place of something like "Tathāgata." Jains would likely be "heretics" to the early Buddhist community.
That would make sense, if it means "sect maker", i.e. a founder of a tradition. "Kara" is I think "doer" or "maker".
I think it means "ford-weaver," but I can't remember where I read that, and it might be wrong.
"Weaver" might be a form of "maker", so poetically "one who makes a way"?
Milinda
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Re: Pali word - Tirthika (Heretic, non-buddhist)

Post by Milinda »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:26 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:08 pm

That would make sense, if it means "sect maker", i.e. a founder of a tradition. "Kara" is I think "doer" or "maker".
I think it means "ford-weaver," but I can't remember where I read that, and it might be wrong.
"Weaver" might be a form of "maker", so poetically "one who makes a way"?
I think the full meaning to any romance or germanic language from Tirthika would be something like:

The one who cross Samsara without understand -in avitya- (aka Die in a non-enlighted way)

Like Ford: "to cross a river".
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