Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

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Dhammapardon
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am

Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

Post by Dhammapardon »

Good day venerables.

I'm looking for additional english translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta.
Especially interested in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.

As it stands I don't fully grasp what's been said here and am hopeful some other phrasings will help.

https://suttacentral.net/sn8.5/en/sujat ... ript=latin

Thank you
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

Post by santa100 »

Dhammapardon"" wrote:I'm looking for additional english translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta.
Ven. Bodhi's version wrote: At S›vatthı.507 There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus
thus: “Bhikkhus!”
“Venerable sir!” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:
“Bhikkhus, when speech possesses four factors, then it is well
spoken, not badly spoken, and it is blameless, not blameworthy
among the wise. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu speaks
only what is well spoken, not what is badly spoken. He speaks
only on the Dhamma, not on non-Dhamma. [189] He speaks
only what is pleasant, not what is unpleasant. He speaks only
what is true, not what is false. <407> When speech possesses
these four factors, it is well spoken, not badly spoken, and it is
blameless, not blameworthy among the wise.”508
This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the
Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this:
726 “What is well spoken, the good say, is foremost;
Second, speak Dhamma, not non-Dhamma;
Third, speak what is pleasant, not unpleasant;
Fourth, speak the truth, not falsehood.”
Then the Venerable Vaºgısa rose from his seat, arranged his
upper robe over one shoulder, and, raising his joined hands in
reverential salutation towards the Blessed One, said to him: “An
inspiration has come to me, Blessed One! An inspiration has
come to me, Fortunate One!”509
The Blessed One said: “Then express your inspiration, Vaºgısa.”
Then the Venerable Vaºgısa extolled the Blessed One to his
face with suitable verses:
727 “One should utter only such speech
By which one does not afflict oneself
Nor cause harm to others:
Such speech is truly well spoken. <408>
728 “One should utter only pleasant speech,
Speech that is gladly welcomed.
When it brings them nothing evil
What one speaks is pleasant to others.
729 “Truth, indeed, is deathless speech:
This is an ancient principle.
The goal and the Dhamma, the good say,
Are established upon truth.510
730 “The secure speech which the Buddha utters
For the attainment of Nibb›na,
For making an end to suffering
Is truly the foremost speech.”511
Dhammapardon
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am

Re: Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

Post by Dhammapardon »

I'm grateful.

My confusion arises around what is pleasant.

Ven. Bodhi translates
"He speaks only what is pleasant, not what is unpleasant."
Ven. Sujato translates
"speak pleasantly, not unpleasantly"
At first I thought these phrasings to be different but upon further reflection I no longer interpret them as so different but there is still another confusion.

Here is my ignorance...

What is pleasant is subjective.
Pleasant to one mired in suffering.
Pleasant to one seeking the end of suffering.
One mired in some suffering, staying with that suffering, may not find what is spoken pleasant.
One mired in some suffering, seeking a way out of that suffering, may find the same thing spoken as pleasant.

Similar to how I interpret sn35.135
"I have seen a hell named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear..."


"I have seen a heaven named 'Six Spheres of Contact.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear..."

My understanding is to know the person who is being spoken to before speaking to them. To discern what way that person is and speak accordingly to the best ability. Because pleasant is subjective, to speak only what is pleasant, one has to know what another finds pleasant.

If I were to practice like this, I might never speak again. However, not practicing perfectly yet and with still strong desire to participate in discussion, not understanding this well enough causes pain for others or pain for myself during or more often after I speak.

I'm hopeful for some clarification I can apply to my own speech which may quench my desire to communicate while continuing to purify what is spoken for those who encounter it. :reading:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

Post by santa100 »

Dhammapardon wrote:Because pleasant is subjective, to speak only what is pleasant, one has to know what another finds pleasant.
It's more simple than you thought. Unless the opposite party is afflicted with some kind of sadist/masochist disorder, it's fairly straightforward to tell the difference between pleasant vs. unpleasant speech. It's not a coincidence that we wouldn't walk up to someone and tell them: "you're one f...ing S.O.B", especially when the one you speak to is a big tough 300 lb dude. There are however, instances where one'd need stern response but even in those cases, one'd still need to say it at the appropriate time and space. For more info on this, see MN 58
Dhammapardon
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am

Re: Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

Post by Dhammapardon »

I see.. overthinking it makes sense for me. MN 58 has also been helpful. :anjali:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Additional English Translations of SN 8.5 Subhāsitasutta

Post by justindesilva »

santa100 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:05 am
Dhammapardon wrote:Because pleasant is subjective, to speak only what is pleasant, one has to know what another finds pleasant.
It's more simple than you thought. Unless the opposite party is afflicted with some kind of sadist/masochist disorder, it's fairly straightforward to tell the difference between pleasant vs. unpleasant speech. It's not a coincidence that we wouldn't walk up to someone and tell them: "you're one f...ing S.O.B", especially when the one you speak to is a big tough 300 lb dude. There are however, instances where one'd need stern response but even in those cases, one'd still need to say it at the appropriate time and space. For more info on this, see MN 58
It is also sammavaca in 8fnp. Samma vaca is rightful speech further explained as speech clear truthful and harmless. Samma vaca is possible with speech alobha, adosa and amoha. It is also explained as hamonious speech.
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