Meditation and Cannabis

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

auto wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:57 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:51 am After I had gained enough knowledge, I quit using any substance and started practising new knowledge with the teachings of Buddha as a container. After six months of dedicated practice, I found what I sought and then used a couple of years to refine it.
What did you practice?
Seclusion, extreme doses of walking meditation, self-inquiry, qi-gong and body awareness/contemplation.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
auto
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by auto »

Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:34 pm
auto wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:57 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:51 am After I had gained enough knowledge, I quit using any substance and started practising new knowledge with the teachings of Buddha as a container. After six months of dedicated practice, I found what I sought and then used a couple of years to refine it.
What did you practice?
Seclusion, extreme doses of walking meditation, self-inquiry, qi-gong and body awareness/contemplation.
These practices brought you happiness, which you sought?
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

auto wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:04 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:34 pm
auto wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:57 pm
What did you practice?
Seclusion, extreme doses of walking meditation, self-inquiry, qi-gong and body awareness/contemplation.
These practices brought you happiness, which you sought?
My main point was to find out if there was a skilful way to use plant medicine, but underneath there was the practice of the eightfold path. When I found out about ways to use cannabis and saw that it wasn't an obstruction to the latter goal, there came a natural giving up and letting go of both. So, I say that happiness is found.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
auto
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by auto »

Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:47 pm My main point was to find out if there was a skilful way to use plant medicine, but underneath there was the practice of the eightfold path. When I found out about ways to use cannabis and saw that it wasn't an obstruction to the latter goal, there came a natural giving up and letting go of both. So, I say that happiness is found.
You mean the cannabis substitutes the need to attain concentration? and you proved it by attaining happiness, which was the same kind, without using cannabis?
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

auto wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:03 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:47 pm My main point was to find out if there was a skilful way to use plant medicine, but underneath there was the practice of the eightfold path. When I found out about ways to use cannabis and saw that it wasn't an obstruction to the latter goal, there came a natural giving up and letting go of both. So, I say that happiness is found.
You mean the cannabis substitutes the need to attain concentration? and you proved it by attaining happiness, which was the same kind, without using cannabis?
No, I mean that no form of concentration could result in unconditioned happiness. Meditation can bring you temporary happiness, and so can cannabis.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
Dhammapardon
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Dhammapardon »

Concentration strong enough and directed at the four sublime states can bring happiness and subsequent insight enough to break addictions.

Cannabis poses a somewhat unique challenge in how it crutches particular elements of a meditator's concentration. I think maybe similar to coffee helps people cast off sleepiness faster or to work better. Or maybe steroids help people lift heavier and be stronger. Maybe more similar to only listening to Dhamma from a wise and virtuous friend but never sitting in silence to practice one's own.

But once this tool is removed or lost or inaccessible, the user suffers because it was not their skill, but the tool that did the work (Wrong effort?). Then this meditator has more difficulty getting the same strong concentration enough to find the happiness and insight strong enough to break free of desire and craving to return to the crutch.

Even more danger, lots of cannabis use makes a person forgetful. It is easy to forget the teachings and become tangled further in the world. Maybe accidentally making bad Kamma. Maybe even further behind than before.

I think I agree with Crazy cloud in that unwise monkey mind will grab for the plants it wants and may become tangled. The way out is not to tell it "do not grab those plants". It already did grab those plants and maybe it is stuck. The way out is to show it is stuck and why so it can get out if it wants to.

Since this thread is not about addiction per se, and my posts are, this will be my last contribution.

These are my opinions and experiences I have encountered so far and I hope they bring further clarity like the rest of this thread brought for me as I continue to unstuck myself from my own cannabis addiction.
Be well.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by auto »

Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:12 pm No, I mean that no form of concentration could result in unconditioned happiness. Meditation can bring you temporary happiness, and so can cannabis.
When there is suffering, then either one develops mind(synonymous to concentration) or smokes cannabis. You can say happiness as a common denominator for these. And it is quite easy to tell which one of them has lasting benefit.
In case of concentration, there arises nimitta pertaining to an abode in the jhana realm. So, it is not just temporary happiness. It is trained throughout the present life, so that your mind would incline(nati) towards sublime states so that it would actually go(gati) there at the moment of death.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

auto wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:11 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:12 pm No, I mean that no form of concentration could result in unconditioned happiness. Meditation can bring you temporary happiness, and so can cannabis.
When there is suffering, then either one develops mind(synonymous to concentration) or smokes cannabis. You can say happiness as a common denominator for these. And it is quite easy to tell which one of them has lasting benefit.
In case of concentration, there arises nimitta pertaining to an abode in the jhana realm. So, it is not just temporary happiness. It is trained throughout the present life, so that your mind would incline(nati) towards sublime states so that it would actually go(gati) there at the moment of death.
This sounds fine to me. The qualities of jhana is also found outside concentrating on a specific object by sitting for a long time on the cushion. There is the point that includes and the point that excludes. And if one trains diligently on attention to that which includes in all postures, then one can keep inner stillness regardless of impingements from the world.

That's why I did extreme portions of walking meditation. Not secluded from the world, but in the world.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
Milinda
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Milinda »

Well I think that cannabis/hashis is not a topic that can be answered with "yes" or "no", black and white.

Modern marihuana should is not like 1950 until bronze age and far beyond.
Western societies they want the high marihuana with more % of THC, maybe old times marihuana just has 11% of thc, while "modern marihuana" that they are crossed seed with another crossed seed until they get a high THC marihuana, a bomb. So not very recommended for dailylife xD.

Maybe CBD hachis or marihuana is just other thing, because i'ts a powerfull anti-inflamatory, but without poisoning your nervous system like HIGH THCs Marihuanas.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

Milinda wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:38 pm Well I think that cannabis/hashis is not a topic that can be answered with "yes" or "no", black and white.

Modern marihuana should is not like 1950 until bronze age and far beyond.
Western societies they want the high marihuana with more % of THC, maybe old times marihuana just has 11% of thc, while "modern marihuana" that they are crossed seed with another crossed seed until they get a high THC marihuana, a bomb. So not very recommended for dailylife xD.

Maybe CBD hachis or marihuana is just other thing, because i'ts a powerfull anti-inflamatory, but without poisoning your nervous system like HIGH THCs Marihuanas.
I don't know about drawbacks of using high potent cannabis as a skillful means to drop into deep stillness. As I experienced, there was putting effort into setting up the right outer and inner conditions, and then the amount of hashish needed was minimal compared to the amount used ordinarily.


I guess if one had available high quality cbd-oil, one could minimize the amount of it even further.
And I agree with you; there are no black-and-white answers in these matters.
But like other aspects with practice, don't blindly believe what's said just because everybody says so.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
auto
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by auto »

Crazy cloud wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:33 pm The qualities of jhana is also found outside concentrating on a specific object by sitting for a long time on the cushion.
Concentration, appana samadhi supports all the meditation positions.
Crazy cloud wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:33 pm There is the point that includes and the point that excludes. And if one trains diligently on attention to that which includes in all postures, then one can keep inner stillness regardless of impingements from the world.

That's why I did extreme portions of walking meditation. Not secluded from the world, but in the world.
You can practice aside other activities but once the meditation object arises you either focus on that or reestablish the activity you were doing. Meditation object erases the ongoing kamma object from the radar.
Problem with practicing aside from other activates is that the meditation object arises tens of times less and most likely never arise, same reason is that the walking meditation is too loud compared to standing or sitting that the object rises less likely.

Other thing is that when you are aware then the meditation object what arises at the mind door is "i am concentrating on the object". The concertation on an object is a fabrication, when you are aware.
When this object arises by itself you get to a next stage. A stage where you use concept and apply it to a materiality to give arise to a mentally apprehended(perceived) form(object, rupa).
Stage after that is when the mental object is extended to the world and then the body/person(internal sense base) is realized within the world and then the saying concentrating on an object makes literally sense, before it is and feels like a fabrication.

There's no excuse to not meditate formally, since it is tens of times more efficient, but you do also need kamma object what is interrupted by concertation object - There is 2 types of practice, actually three.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

All you say is fine, I can't object to it, but it's only abstract conceptualization and imo not what "meditation" is ...

In short: I don't know what meditation is, but I know what leads to suffering and the way out. So, as long I see that suffering becomes less, it is fine enough for me.

Maybe you cling and grasp to hard to what is said to be the teachings and doubt about practice.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by auto »

Crazy cloud wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:48 pm All you say is fine, I can't object to it, but it's only abstract conceptualization and imo not what "meditation" is ...

In short: I don't know what meditation is, but I know what leads to suffering and the way out. So, as long I see that suffering becomes less, it is fine enough for me.

Maybe you cling and grasp to hard to what is said to be the teachings and doubt about practice.
In my opinion i use enough terminology to have a proper response, what would dispel confusion about are you genuine or not, regards to these terms. In other thread you argue for qigong while i quote text what say qigong is not part of the great path meditations which involves 'abiding in stillness'. You are using this 'stillness' term here regards to skillful cannabis use. So far i gather you have wrong stillness while thinking it is correct one and will lessen your suffering.
viewtopic.php?p=664363#p664363
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Crazy cloud »

auto wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:20 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:48 pm All you say is fine, I can't object to it, but it's only abstract conceptualization and imo not what "meditation" is ...

In short: I don't know what meditation is, but I know what leads to suffering and the way out. So, as long I see that suffering becomes less, it is fine enough for me.

Maybe you cling and grasp to hard to what is said to be the teachings and doubt about practice.
In my opinion i use enough terminology to have a proper response, what would dispel confusion about are you genuine or not, regards to these terms. In other thread you argue for qigong while i quote text what say qigong is not part of the great path meditations which involves 'abiding in stillness'. You are using this 'stillness' term here regards to skillful cannabis use. So far i gather you have wrong stillness while thinking it is correct one and will lessen your suffering.
viewtopic.php?p=664363#p664363
I could provide you with a lot of writings that proves my experiences, but think it is futile because we like to stick to our own beliefs. And nobody can argue or discuss beliefs. I'm okay with the results of the practice.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
auto
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by auto »

Crazy cloud wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:36 pm I could provide you with a lot of writings that proves my experiences, but think it is futile because we like to stick to our own beliefs. And nobody can argue or discuss beliefs. I'm okay with the results of the practice.
You mean you aren't capable to post anything in two lines.
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