How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Johann
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

What does good householder think. Could a teacher, a Venerable, cut one off while still holding on house, stand, if teaching his disciples like a householder sitting with them on a chair? Aren't there many Ahara-hants around. They, students, usually start to approach with Suttas, right, and hardly have learned basic things, such as developing kaya, speech, bodily ways.

Breath in, breath out. What ever perception will be soon seen as it actually comes and goes about. Even a single day and night would serves one's "great luck". In and of itself, the breath.

My person, Atma, can good imagine the fights on FB and youtubes everywhere is SEAsia... What does he think, would it be proper for a monk to argue with certain mobs around and join householding? Or simple go on?
Last edited by Johann on Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

You are still rambling. One who understand dhamma doesn't ramble on and on.

O yeah, give up house, doesn't mean one is free from birth, sick, oldage, and death. Buddha teaching is about wisdom by developing faculties through path.

Not because wearing a robe, not because giving up house, not because blind faith, etc...etc...

Please reflect.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Can anyone please explain to me how by practicing anapanasati as "focusing" on breathing in and out fulfill satipattana? Or what's the popular teaching now days that by breathing in and out as anapansati can fulfill satipattana? Thanks in advance.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by santa100 »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:12 pm Can anyone please explain to me how by practicing anapanasati as "focusing" on breathing in and out fulfill satipattana? Or what's the popular teaching now days that by breathing in and out as anapansati can fulfill satipattana? Thanks in advance.
It's not the act of focusing on breathing, in and of itself, that fulffills satipatthana. It's the subsequent steps (the later parts of the 4 tetrads) of Anapanasati that do the job, like: tranquilizing bodily formation (1st tetrad); tranquilizing mental formation (2nd tetrad); liberating the mind (3rd tetrad); etc....
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

- "It's not the act of focusing on breathing, in and of itself, that fulffills satipatthana"

Santa100, so then are you saying that anapanasati is not about breathing in or out and feeling one's breath throughout the different parts of the body?
But the link to the sutta you posted mentions . . .

"Fulfilment of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness
“And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; breathing in short, understands: ‘I breathe in short,’ or breathing out short, understands: ‘I breathe out short’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation."

I didn't read the whole sutta and not going to at this moment. But based on what I have quickly scanned through, it mentions a bunch of breathing in and out. As well the "English translation" mentions :quote: “And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?"

What's the explanation here based on what Santa100 is saying? So one breaths in and out as the first step or first tetrads, then the other subsequent steps or tetrads follows after that? When the other subsequent steps or tetrads follow, does one still need to keep their minds on their breathing? Can anyone clarify all this?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by santa100 »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:16 pm - "It's not the act of focusing on breathing, in and of itself, that fulffills satipatthana"

Santa100, so then are you saying that anapanasati is not about breathing in or out and feeling one's breath throughout the different parts of the body?
But the link to the sutta you posted mentions . . .

"Fulfilment of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness
“And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?

“Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long, understands: ‘I breathe in long,’ or breathing out long, understands: ‘I breathe out long’; breathing in short, understands: ‘I breathe in short,’ or breathing out short, understands: ‘I breathe out short’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation."

I didn't read the whole sutta and not going to at this moment. But based on what I have quickly scanned through, it mentions a bunch of breathing in and out. As well the "English translation" mentions :quote: “And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?"

What's the explanation here based on what Santa100 is saying? So one breaths in and out as the first step or first tetrads, then the other subsequent steps or tetrads follows after that? When the other subsequent steps or tetrads follow, does one still need to keep their minds on their breathing? Can anyone clarify all this?
I'd recommend you spending some time to read MN 118 in details, for no level of explanation from forum members online would do justice for deepening your understanding of the working of Anapanasati and Satipatthana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:12 pm Can anyone please explain to me how by practicing anapanasati as "focusing" on breathing in and out fulfill satipattana? Or what's the popular teaching now days that by breathing in and out as anapansati can fulfill satipattana? Thanks in advance.
ANAPANASATI - MINDFULNESS WITH BREATHING Unveiling the Secrets of Life:a Manual for Serious Beginners – by BUDDHADASA BHIKKHU
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

- "I'd recommend you spending some time to read MN 118 in details, for no level of explanation from forum members online would do justice for deepening your understanding of the working of Anapanasati and Satipatthana."

Thank you for the recommendation Santa100, but I'm specifically looking for any forum members or anyone renown in Buddhist practices explanation without me having to read sutta's or someone's book. But based on their own experiences and understanding, how does anapanasati as breathing in and out fulfill satipattana? I don't think more than a few paragraphs is needed to explain this . . . if possible . . .

mjaviem, the link to the pdf book you posted . . . I'm not going to read it . . . I quickly scanned through the beginning of it and already I found inconsistencies / misunderstandings, etc . . . according to my understanding of the Buddha dhamma. For example . . . from the pdf book you linked . .

- "The breath-body is very important because we can see that it sustains life in the rest of the body. And here we have the crucial relationship that we need to study. The general body, this flesh-body, is something that cannot be regulated directly. Such is not within our ability. However, there is a way to control it, to master it, indirectly by using the breath. If we act in a certain way toward one body (breath), there will be a certain effect upon another body (flesh). This is why we take the breath as the training object. Super­vising the breath to whatever degree is equal to regulating the flesh­ body to that degree."

- "The breath-body is very important because we can see that it sustains life in the rest of the body. And here we have the crucial relationship that we need to study. "

Is this serious? What's more crucial relationship that one needs to study in the Buddha dhamma. The breath-body or Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta . . . or other core Buddhist teachings . . . ? What does the breath-body have to do with Buddha Dhamma . . .?

- "The general body, this flesh-body, is something that cannot be regulated directly. Such is not within our ability. However, there is a way to control it, to master it, indirectly by using the breath."

The way I read this line, it's saying one "can control and master the body". But pretty much every Theravada Buddhist practitioners including pretty much everyone on here DW "thinks and believes" anatta is no self or none self (I don't think or believe anatta means no self or none self, but that's irrelevant for this discussion). I'm sure it's pretty clear and obvious to everyone that in the Anattalakkhaṇasutta, form / body is anatta.

“Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, anattā.
For if form were self, it wouldn’t lead to affliction. And you could compel form:
Rūpañca hidaṁ, bhikkhave, attā abhavissa, nayidaṁ rūpaṁ ābādhāya saṁvatteyya, labbhetha ca rūpe:
‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’
‘evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī’ti.
But because form is not-self, it leads to affliction. And you can’t compel form:
Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ anattā, tasmā rūpaṁ ābādhāya saṁvattati, na ca labbhati rūpe:
‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’
‘evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī’ti.

Feeling is not-self …
Vedanā anattā.

Basically what's being said is that "rupam, vedana, so on . . ." is Anatta, if form / body was atta, we "CAN CONTROL IT" (compel) and would not lead to suffering. But because form / body is Anatta, we "CANNOT CONTROL IT" (can't compel form).

So who or what's correct? The Anattalakkhaṇasutta or someone teaching or telling me that "The general body, this flesh-body, is something that cannot be regulated directly. Such is not within our ability. However, there is a way to control it, to master it, indirectly by using the breath."

This is just scratching the surface . . . Want me to continue listing all the inconsistencies / misunderstandings, etc . . .according to my understanding of the Buddha dhamma that I can find in these types of teachings and what people post on here? No no, I'm jk, I'm not going to do that and will do my best to refrain from doing so.

At this current moment, all I'm looking for is someone (if possible) explain to me (in mostly their own words) based on their own experiences and understandings how anapanasati as breathing in and out fulfills satipattana?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Cashews »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:08 pm Basically what's being said is that "rupam, vedana, so on . . ." is Anatta, if form / body was atta, we "CAN CONTROL IT" (compel) and would not lead to suffering. But because form / body is Anatta, we "CANNOT CONTROL IT" (can't compel form).
Hi. You are saying I cannot CONTROL my fingers to make them type the letters I want to type on a keyboard? Anatta is only saying ultimately the body cannot be controlled, such as stopping getting sick, stopping urination or stopping the end of life. Anatta does not mean I cannot choose to control the body as best as possible.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:08 pmAt this current moment, all I'm looking for is someone (if possible) explain to me (in mostly their own words) based on their own experiences and understandings how anapanasati as breathing in and out fulfills satipattana?
How? Focus on breathing eventually causes rapture to arise. Rapture then forms the object of 2nd satipatthana. It continues like this for those who can CONTROL their mind to generate superhuman BLISS or RAPTURE. :meditate:
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Hi Cashew, may you and us all be well.

I saw that was your first post on DW. Welcome and use your discernment well here.

- "Anatta does not mean I cannot choose to control the body as best as possible.

I would agree that we can "try" and "choose" to control the body as much as possible, but eventually we'll lose control over it. As well, the final outcome for things we wish / desire / hope / like to happen isn't completely dependent based on our liking or willing for them to happen.

For example, "being able to" control one's fingers for a specific purpose such as typing on a keyboard isn't only dependent on us liking / willing that to happen, but other conditions are needed to come together for it to happen. Some of these conditions needed for this to happen or not happen is something we don't have complete control over.

Anatta isn't just about control or no control of the body. There are other ways to understand and see anatta. Anatta can be applied to the suffering filled rebirth process taught by the Buddha. How one doesn't have control of where one is born next. How one can be born in the woeful planes of existence or other unfortunate situations against one's liking or wishing.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by pegembara »

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

15] (vi) "If anyone says, ‘Mind is self’, that is not acceptable. The rise and fall of mind is seen and understood, and since its rise and fall are discerned, it would follow: ‘My self rises and falls’. That is why it is not acceptable for anyone to say, ‘Mind is self’. Thus mind is not self.

"If anyone says, ‘Mind-objects are self’, that is not acceptable. The rise and fall of mind-objects are seen and understood, and since their rise and fall are discerned, it would follow: ‘My self rises and falls’. That is why it is not acceptable for anyone to say, ‘Mind-objects are self’. Thus mind is not self, mind-objects are not self.

"If anyone says, ‘mind-consciousness is self’, that is not acceptable. The rise and fall of mind-consciousness is seen and understood, and since its rise and fall are discerned, it would follow: ‘My self rises and falls’. That is why it is not acceptable for anyone to say, ‘mind-consciousness is self’. Thus mind is not self, mind-objects are not self, mind-consciousness is not self.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhik ... _Sutta.htm
"He becomes disenchanted with the mind, disenchanted with mind-objects, disenchanted with mind-consciousness, disenchanted with mind-contact, disenchanted with mind-feeling, disenchanted with mind-craving.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32

“One who has sons sorrows over sons,
One with cattle sorrows over cattle.
Acquisitions truly are a man’s sorrows;
Without acquisitions one does not sorrow.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.12/en/bodh ... ight=false
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Cashews »

Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:08 am Welcome and use your discernment well here.
Thank you. However, I have no intention to accept, let alone consider, your aspiration above. Following the principles of the Dhamma, the Buddha would recommend you would be better served applying the above to yourself.
Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:08 amI would agree that we can "try" and "choose" to control the body as much as possible, but eventually we'll lose control over it.
As a faithful Buddhist, I have read DN 16, where the Lord Buddha had totally CONTROL over his mental faculties & entered & emerged from all jhanas & immaterial spheres until CHOOSING to pass away with ordinary consciousness.

I think discernment is well used by not undermining & sabotaging the Dhamma Teachings, which are about exercising CONTROL over the Factors of The Noble Path.

To conclude, when the mind is CONTROLLED, the breathing can become the object of meditation & be CONTROLLED, which is mastery of the 1st Satipatthana. When the breathing is control, then rapture arises & is eventually calmed, which is mastery of the 2nd Satipatthana. Rapture is both experienced & calm while observing each breathing-in & each breathing-in; with a mind under CONTROL of samadhi. When rapture is calmed, the mind can be very intimately known, CONTROLLED & purified, which is mastery of the 3rd Satipatthana. The mind is both experienced & purified while observing each breathing-in & each breathing-in; with a mind under CONTROL of samadhi. Then, the mind being very pure, it is then naturally directed to perceive impermanence & nirodha very clearly, which is mastery of the 4th Satipatthana. This is how Anapanasati fulfills the Satipatthana, as explained by our Lord Buddha in MN 118 and also explained by the Venerable Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (despite some beginner's instructions from the Visuddhamagga) in the book that was kindly offered to you with good will. Good luck.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Hi Cashew,
However, I have no intention to accept, let alone consider, your aspiration above
What one intends to accept or consider is there own choice, as it should be. I understood this from experiences and interacting with people, especially on these types of forums. I'm just here as an another participant.
where the Lord Buddha had totally CONTROL over his mental faculties & entered & emerged from all jhanas & immaterial spheres
I agree that Lord Buddha had "some" control over his mental faculties where he can enter and emerged from all jhanas & immaterial spheres. But he did not have "complete" control over his "mental faculties". The words "mental faculties" can also include brain, hadaya vatthu, mano indriya.
I think discernment is well used by not undermining & sabotaging the Dhamma Teachings, which are about exercising CONTROL over the Factors of The Noble Path.
Yes I agree in the way that we should strive on the Noble 8 fold path is exercising some control on how we think, speak, and act. But understanding (wisdom) of the 4 noble truths, Anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc . . . is also an important part of striving on the Noble 8 fold path.

Discernment to me would be:

"I think discernment is well used by scrutinizing the dhamma teachings, one's understanding of it, and especially what others mention / says / teaches about it."

"Blind beliefs or unintended wrong beliefs / views can undermine & sabotage the Dhamma teachings"

"Blindly going with the herd is a dangerous path." This is what I have seen / contemplated / learned from life experiences.
in the book that was kindly offered to you with good will
Thank you for bringing this up! Yes it was possible that this book was kindly offered to me with good will. It seems like I didn't kindly accept it and might have made a mistake in my conduct. I would like to apologize to mjaviem and thank you for kindly sharing the book with me.

Regardless of what people think, I believe I already found the "right" and enough learning material to last me a life time. A life time isn't probably enough for me to complete the learning. If someone wants to quote or recommend a book / long reading to me, it would be most helpful to me if they type a paragraph or two explaining what's important and relevant from the material to the discussion.

Cashew, thank you for your explanation on how anapanasati fulfills the satipatthana. I have a few questions if you feel like answering.

#1. You mention
The mind is both experienced & purified while observing each breathing-in & each breathing-in; with a mind under CONTROL of samadhi.

I believe you're saying breathing in and breathing out purifies the mind? Is this correct? Is there anything else that's purifying the mind?

Or

Based on the steps you mentioned, what's purifying the mind?

#2. Do you believe satipatthana should be practiced at all times or as much as possible?

#3. From question #2. also including outside of formal meditative practice?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
Cashews
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Cashews »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:34 am Based on the steps you mentioned, what's purifying the mind?
Nirodha dhatu purifies the mind flowing in the Stream to Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:08 pm how does anapanasati as breathing in and out fulfill satipattana?
With the breath, it's perfect for many things. Observing the body, shedding distractions, focusing the attention of the mind, staying in the present moment, something continuously changing, something which when changes causes other changes in the body, and continuously taking place in this very moment.

When sensitive to the body and how the breath affects the body in the present moment then you can notice how certain breathing does certain things with the body which can follow to the feelings, the thoughts.. A good state for careful examination of things.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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