The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

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Milinda
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The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Milinda »

https://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-Dal ... 27075.html

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/42 ... sions.html

https://www.news24.com/news24/dalai-lam ... n-20001231

"I believe that the French, who are Christian by culture and ancestry, should remain Christian. It is better to stick to your own traditional values.... It is only if, after mature reflection, you believe that Buddhism could offer you more than Christianity that you should become a Buddhist" December 2000

Through the years the Dalai Lama opposed to Buddhist conversion, (but he may forbet that although the tibetans converted Mongols to Vajrayana Buddhism ) and even the word "Dalai Lama" is a mongolian term. :jumping:

I think it can be usefull, because well if you see many westerners who claim to be Buddhists :quote: , they don't understand at all the teachings and they mix atavistic christian believes with buddhist one such as;

-Believe that Jesus and Siddharta preached the same
-Believing in a soul, reeincarnation,
-Uknowing Anatman doctrine

For example that kind of pictures, in reality they are totaly the opposite.

Image

For that reason I think the Dalai Lama standed against proselitism and conversions (specialy on the West, due to tibetan diaspora and that Vajrayana buddhism is the most extended in Europe).

What says Theravada about 'conversions'???
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The Dalai Lama also lives in India, where there is a massive taboo against evangelization and conversion that has never existed in former Christendom. Unless I'm mistaken, it's actually illegal in a lot of India to evangelize. It all stems from Muslim, and then later Anglican, attempts to stamp out Hinduism (and Buddhism and Jainism).
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by DNS »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:36 pm The Dalai Lama also lives in India, where there is a massive taboo against evangelization and conversion that has never existed in former Christendom. Unless I'm mistaken, it's actually illegal in a lot of India to evangelize. It all stems from Muslim, and then later Anglican, attempts to stamp out Hinduism (and Buddhism and Jainism).
+1

It's about the context; also note that he was speaking at a Roman Catholic university when he said that. So it could have been to discourage the ongoing attempted conversions and proselytizing done by Catholics in India.

People have a right to convert. How could anyone stop what a person is thinking or what prayers a person is doing silently? Impossible.

Additionally, in today's world there are millions who are born with no religion. I'm old so when I grew up in American schools (1960s-1970s) everyone was either Protestant, Catholic, some Jews and even fewer Muslims. There were no atheists, no agnostics. All my classmates belonged to one of those four, from their upbringing by their parents. Now I'm amazed to hear how many people there are who say they grew up with no religion, no Sunday school classes. There are millions of people in First World nations who have Christian ancestors but were never baptized. This was unheard of in my younger days. They have a right to choose a religion and follow it, imo.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Milinda »

DNS wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:00 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:36 pm The Dalai Lama also lives in India, where there is a massive taboo against evangelization and conversion that has never existed in former Christendom. Unless I'm mistaken, it's actually illegal in a lot of India to evangelize. It all stems from Muslim, and then later Anglican, attempts to stamp out Hinduism (and Buddhism and Jainism).
+1

It's about the context; also note that he was speaking at a Roman Catholic university when he said that. So it could have been to discourage the ongoing attempted conversions and proselytizing done by Catholics in India.

People have a right to convert. How could anyone stop what a person is thinking or what prayers a person is doing silently? Impossible.

Additionally, in today's world there are millions who are born with no religion. I'm old so when I grew up in American schools (1960s-1970s) everyone was either Protestant, Catholic, some Jews and even fewer Muslims. There were no atheists, no agnostics. All my classmates belonged to one of those four, from their upbringing by their parents. Now I'm amazed to hear how many people there are who say they grew up with no religion, no Sunday school classes. There are millions of people in First World nations who have Christian ancestors but were never baptized. This was unheard of in my younger days. They have a right to choose a religion and follow it, imo.
I think due that in reality there are no few Christians who they claim to be Christians, but they mix with some Buddha teachings (like previous life), there are many people in the West who can be converted easily from cultural christian families
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Radix »

DNS wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:00 pmIt's about the context; also note that he was speaking at a Roman Catholic university when he said that. So it could have been to discourage the ongoing attempted conversions and proselytizing done by Catholics in India.
He spoke about it many times, in many different contexts.

There was also this, here what appears to be an official press statement:
Press statement: His Holiness the Dalai Lama has no plans of conversion of Hindus to Buddhism

5 October, 2001: My attention was drawn to news reports sometime back stating that His Holiness the Dalai Lama was going to convert one million Hindus into Buddhism. I did not react then because I thought this was utterly un-true and totally an irresponsible piece of news reporting, planted by some vested interests. I felt then this piece of irresponsible news reporting did not deserve a considered reaction.

But yesterday morning I had the good fortune to have an audience with Shri Shri Jagadguru Shankaracharya-Matha of Puri. His Holiness Jagaguru Shankaracharya mentioned to me that this same news appeared in leading national newspapers during His Holiness the Dalai Lama visit to Kolkata sometime in March this year. The news reports accompanied His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s photographs. The news reports claimed that His Holiness the Dalai Lama issued a statement to the journalists on the mass conversion plans. [...]

https://tibet.net/press-statement-his-h ... -buddhism/
People have a right to convert.
This is merely a kind of right as stated by some secular constitutions. The purpose of the "right to freedom of religion" is to get the various religions in a country to stop fighting amongst eachother for supremacy (as such fights can cause a lot of civil unrest and material damage, which is not in the interest of the state) and to secure the separation of religion and state. The constitutional right to freedom of religion doesn't exist because of some profound insight into the workings of the universe or the belief in the equality of all people. It's a practical measure of the secular state seeking to protect its interests.
How could anyone stop what a person is thinking or what prayers a person is doing silently?
Obviously, other religious people, esp. those of the same religion.

The secular state isn't going to help you if the religion of your choice doesn't want you.
Additionally, in today's world there are millions who are born with no religion. I'm old so when I grew up in American schools (1960s-1970s) everyone was either Protestant, Catholic, some Jews and even fewer Muslims. There were no atheists, no agnostics. All my classmates belonged to one of those four, from their upbringing by their parents. Now I'm amazed to hear how many people there are who say they grew up with no religion, no Sunday school classes. There are millions of people in First World nations who have Christian ancestors but were never baptized. This was unheard of in my younger days. They have a right to choose a religion and follow it, imo.
But does that mean that the secular state must guarantee that this right is respected, that the person can freely act on it?
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Radix »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:36 pm The Dalai Lama also lives in India, where there is a massive taboo against evangelization and conversion that has never existed in former Christendom. Unless I'm mistaken, it's actually illegal in a lot of India to evangelize. It all stems from Muslim, and then later Anglican, attempts to stamp out Hinduism (and Buddhism and Jainism).
Don't forget that in Hinduism, there is no equivalent institution to that of the Church, no central governing body and its hierarchy, no binding holy scripture, even no universal threat of eternal damnation for choosing the wrong religion. In this regard, in comparison with mainstream Abrahamic religions, the religious sphere in India is rather amorphous. Adding to this that for many Hindus, one's religion is a matter of one's birth, one's caste, something that is impossible to change, inconceivable to change.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Crazy cloud »

If all western conditioning is cleared out there shouldn't be a wrong to convert. But maybe many western practitioners try bypassing it and fail to see how deep the shadow reaches. There's nothing wrong with our religious wisdom if it is taken to heart and practiced wholeheartedly.

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Buggers to blame
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Radix »

Rinpoche wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:32 pmFor that reason I think the Dalai Lama standed against proselitism and conversions
It's been a while since he said those things, and references are not easy to find anymore. I remember though that he spoke out against treating Buddhism as the latest fashion, he spoke against a superficial approach to Buddhism (and that thus, it was better not to convert at all than to convert only superficially).
Google, for example, "buddha head on coffee table" and you get many examples of this superficiality.


What says Theravada about 'conversions'???
IIRC, there is a sutta that takes a dim view of people who used to be adherents of other schools/religions.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Aloka »

The Dalai Lama isn't the head of Buddhism. Personally I wish him well but I'm not particularly interested in his opinions.

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by SarathW »

What is important is not the conversion.
What is important is to learn the true teaching and follow it.
In that regard, every person should learn all the religions.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Goofaholix »

Rinpoche wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:32 pm It is only if, after mature reflection, you believe that Buddhism could offer you more than Christianity that you should become a Buddhist" December 2000
This is how it should happen, somebody needs to understand what Buddhism offers and why they should practice it otherwise there is no point. So I assume when you say conversion you mean some king of coercion to make somebody change religion, I haven't seen much evidence that Buddhists try to do this to other people.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Milinda »

Radix wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:05 pm
Rinpoche wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:32 pmFor that reason I think the Dalai Lama standed against proselitism and conversions
It's been a while since he said those things, and references are not easy to find anymore. I remember though that he spoke out against treating Buddhism as the latest fashion, he spoke against a superficial approach to Buddhism (and that thus, it was better not to convert at all than to convert only superficially).
Google, for example, "buddha head on coffee table" and you get many examples of this superficiality.


What says Theravada about 'conversions'???
IIRC, there is a sutta that takes a dim view of people who used to be adherents of other schools/religions.
Well, if you see there is articles from 2000, 2009,and 2013. So I think that still he thinks the same way.
But you are right, if you see even there is "Buddha club", brothels with a Buddha statue on the entrance, licuors call Buddha.

So I dont know what is worse, if mixing christian believes such as God, the existance of Soul, with buddhism, or Buddha as an ornament. :cry:
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by mario92 »

It is allways better to convert to buddhism because christians doesnt believe in karma and might do bad deeds without knowing the results, the sooner you get to know the true dhamma the better.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by santa100 »

mario92 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:46 am It is allways better to convert to buddhism because christians doesnt believe in karma and might do bad deeds without knowing the results, the sooner you get to know the true dhamma the better.
Technically speaking, Christians should be under even more pressure to do good things because once they're cast down to their Christian Hell, they'd be doomed forever without ever climbing back up the hierarchy, unlike the Buddhist Hell where there's still hope for a better rebirth once one's paid his dues. And whatever happens to those 10 Commandments which are pretty similar to the Buddhist precepts: thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife, etc...??
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Coëmgenu »

santa100 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:17 amTechnically speaking, Christians should be under even more pressure to do good things because once they're cast down to their Christian Hell, they'd be doomed forever [...]
You underestimate how antinomian Classical Protestantism is. Luther said "Sin boldly."

Methodism is likely more your style than Calvinism.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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