Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Johann
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Johann »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:55 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:57 pm Buddhism is for ordinary worldly people who are often jerks
Buddhism is not for ordinary people


It’s the incredible insight of a lone Sage…


Meant for other sages
I consider myself an ordinary person (well, relatively ordinary!) who practices Buddhism. So where am I getting it wrong? Am I not practising Buddhism, or am I a sage without knowing it?
Atma replayed on it, but was hindered, so another try on that:

It would be wrong (in relation to long term happiness) to do not desire to leave the common domain into Noble One: this is one's wrong-doing. Who would be responsible for this faith arising?

It would be wrong to consider one practicing the Path, if holding on commo/unity (Sakāya), since one pratices just outside. Who would be responsible for this faith arising?

It's possible that one gets aware that has changed ancestry. Who would be responsible?

Google wouldn't, as well as no taken and not given book.

It's right that this Dhamna-Vinaya isn't for common folk, yet nevertheless for their welfare, not for their lose.
Pulsar
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest Radix: I thought of your comment
"There is no one here who can help You"
I was a bit hurt by that coment, since I thought I could help you. But here is my ego surfacing
telling me that I have magical or miraculous powers. I do not. I think Bundokji said somewhere on this thread? or is my memory faulty that the canon says that this ability is one of the miracles, the ability of sound communication.
I have a long way to go.
Getting back to your question "Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?"
even though I objected to "Who" in a sense there is a "Who"
Buddha has not quite denied the existence of a self, neither its non-existence.
At those times when one is overwhelmed by identification, the individual only is responsible
for that faith.
Long time ago I recall your pointing out the simile of the three fire sticks in MN 36. There was only one other person on the forum that brought up this subject, as I recall. I thought "What an Insight!"
to single out that metaphor.
It is a loaded metaphor, only the genius Buddha could come up with.
If you understood that simile, then you don't have a long way to go.
Life frustrates, imagine all the Underlying tendencies we have accumulated over lifetimes, or a lifetime?Don't let the frustration hinder you.
If you have a hint of faith, the first task would be to
"work at getting rid of the hindrances"
It sounds fairly simple, but it is immensely difficult, since it is a matter of battling the Underlying
tendencies, every waking moment.
I wish you and your family a very Happy Thanksgiving, and to everyone else on the Forum,
to those who make the forum possible, very much so.
I give thanks that I have crossed your path.
With Love :candle:
Bundokji
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Bundokji »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:10 pm It appears once the other shore is reached, the means of carrying the practitioner there is discarded. Would this not include faith too?
Yes, it would include faith that the other shore is reachable, which is not logically impossible. I think the flip side to this type of faith is when the practitioner feels that s/he is sacrificing something in order to attain the noble path, such as social relations, career or worldly success. I guess this is easier avoided by practitioners of whom worldly standards have less appeal to them. This would make it difficult to blame the triple gem for triggering/initiating such sacrifices if one is to be honest with himself/herself. Even calling them sacrifices would be misleading: worldly limitations are there for everyone to see regardless of the level of attainments. Being constantly aware of them is key for intelligent living, and the teachings are not against worldly success through just means for those who desire it.

If one is to go beyond worldly success and wholesome living, a new set of difficulties would be awaiting the practitioner. Realistically, people are not on equal footings before the Buddha's teachings, and when the practitioner feels that s/he reached a dead-end, it would be easy to blame the triple gem. Here, faith in the wisdom of the triple gem would be to acknowledge that people are taught according to their respective abilities, and that the conceit of being "equal" is counterproductive. The dhamma suits more those who want little.

Another aspect of faith has to do with non-harming. Giving children dangerous tools would not be for their well-being, nor for the well-being of others. In wordily affairs, drivers license are not given to minors for good reasons. If biological birth is difficult and traumatizing enough in the human realm, transformations that advanced practitioners go through can be much more radical of which an ordinary person might not survive without serious injuries. If we take the practice to be a mental gym, injuries would not to be uncommon amongst those who try to stretch beyond their respective capacities. Slow and steady seems to be the proper way.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Pulsar
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji wrote
I think the flip side to this type of faith is when the practitioner feels that s/he is sacrificing something in order to attain the noble path, such as social relations, career or worldly success.
Is not the second point/step in 8-fold path, about renunciation?
Renunciation does not mean giving up the lay life. One can be with family without being attached to family in a negative way. But if one is busy with a demanding job, then it is not doable.
I think Metta sutta and Mangala sutta admits this, and some other suttas too. I think the word is "One should be of light livelihood"
You continued
I guess this is easier avoided by practitioners of whom worldly standards have less appeal to them. This would make it difficult to blame the triple gem for triggering/initiating such sacrifices if one is to be honest with himself/herself.
Triple Gem is not to be balmed. Even the Buddha woreshipped the Dhamma. See Garave sutta.
Even calling them sacrifices would be misleading: worldly limitations are there for everyone to see regardless of the level of attainments. Being constantly aware of them is key for intelligent living, and the teachings are not against worldly success through just means for those who desire it.
Being constantly aware is the key word.
Even in such simple things as when we are inclined to say a cross word, ask ourselves
"Is it the right thing to say?" especially on a Buddhist forum? In some rare cases, it is, like when a thing was stuck in the baby's throat, I forget the sutta name.
And the last thing you wrote
Another aspect of faith has to do with non-harming. Giving children dangerous tools would not be for their well-being, nor for the well-being of others.
This is fabulous. In some cases Dhamma learnt can harm someone, if one is not spiritually mature enough (puthujjana). Think of those who get hold of the Dhamma like one gets hold of a snake by the tail. Is it Alagaddupama sutta?
We can see quite a bit of that happening in buddhist circles.
You wrote
drivers license are not given to minors for good reasons.
A child is not allowed to approach a snake, one who is liable to grab the animal by the tail.
Even the Buddha worships the Dhamma, that snake which when handled wrongly leads to one's death. However when handled by the neck leads to Nibbana.
With love :candle:
Bundokji
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Bundokji »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:41 pm Is not the second point/step in 8-fold path, about renunciation?
Renunciation does not mean giving up the lay life. One can be with family without being attached to family in a negative way. But if one is busy with a demanding job, then it is not doable.
I think Metta sutta and Mangala sutta admits this, and some other suttas too. I think the word is "One should be of light livelihood"
I guess renunciation as giving up lay life is quite advanced. To remind ourselves that the path to insight is natural serves as a warning against out tendency to simulate what we imagine to be advanced stages, such as samvega. There is nothing noble about using the path to further our self deception. Faith is to acknowledge that one is not free from sensuality, and that this freedom has to be through understanding what the Buddha taught.

Faith on the other hand can help us make decisions while living lay life which would hopefully bring us closer to the goal. I am not sure if it is wise to share this on a public forum, but last month i decided to quit my job without having any alternatives in mind career wise. The questioning from society is to be expected. I argued at that time (when asked) that we never knew exactly what is going to happen to us. Without getting into much details, i have less debts as we speak than when i was employed. I would call this "the irony of existence". I should admit that i have a guilty and unwholesome pleasure: whatever proves them wrong is pleasing to me :soap:
In some cases Dhamma learnt can harm someone, if one is not spiritually mature enough (puthujjana). Think of those who get hold of the Dhamma like one gets hold of a snake by the tail.
I think the path to spiritual maturity begins in the world. I often remind myself that Ānantarika Kamma puts ones parents with Arahants in the same basket. I also remind myself of the biography of Ajahn Chah, who suspended his practice to take care of his father when he was sick. We have much to gain, and little to lose by following the teachings of the noble ones.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:14 pmI thought Radix's response was funny. You didn't?
I don't find it funny. It wasn't meant to be funny.

Oscar Wilde said that philanthrophic people lose all sense of humanity (and that it's their distinguishing characteristic). It's similar with those who make a point of considering themselves religious/spiritual/advanced: they lose all sense of humanity. Religious/spiritual zealotry comes in many forms, but by far the most insidious one is the one that overtly doesn't look like zealotry at all. The biggest dangers don't come from the left, nor from the right, but from mediocrity, which is not the Middle Way.
Last edited by Radix on Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:05 pm Radix wrote
That's putting the cart before the horse.
Is not Buddha Dhamma founded on Paticca samuppada/an understanding of "How suffering originates"
Without having attained stream entry, how could you possibly know that ("know" as in "know for yourself")?
Am I wrong in thinking so? Without understanding the foundation, how would one proceed?
With generosity and goodwill.
You asked how faith is built? Would not the understanding of DO be the stepping stone?
Perhaps for some people.
But generally, no.

Many, if not most people attracted to Buddhism don't even know what "DO" stands for.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Radix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:14 pmI thought Radix's response was funny. You didn't?
I don't find it funny. It wasn't meant to be funny.
And yet it was!

I occasionally find overly candid disclosures that transgress social conventions rather amusing. I also sometimes find myself chuckling at incredibly lowbrow humour. It takes all kinds. Apologies if I've undermined an important point that you wanted to make, possibly accompanied by a tone of seriousness.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Radix wrote
The biggest dangers don't come from the left, nor from the right, but from mediocrity, which is the opposite of the Middle Way.
Things you say at times are brilliant, I fail to see that as funny. What is funny is how the the mediocre misinterprets the origination of suffering and leads a whole generation of buddhists on a mediocre path that does not lead to the ending of suffering, but to endless speculation.
The mediocre interprets the origination of suffering as a physical birth, not the unwise contact of a sense base with a sense object, which creates a new identification. The wise don't touch the sights, sounds, tastes etc entering via the sense bases.
The mediocre misinterprets Salayatana tragically, not funny at all.
Thanks Radix for your inspirational words on Dhamma Wheel. I enjoy reading them.
with love :candle:
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Radix wrote 
Without having attained stream entry, how could you possibly know that ("know" as in "know for yourself")?
I have not said that I have attained stream entry on this forum, nor have I said that I have not attained stream entry.
There are times when I follow the instructions of SN 47.42 "Samudaya Sutta", my mind does not get established on the four foundations.
So I have had glimpses of what it is like not to identify with a self. 
Is a glimpse not sufficient to know the truth Of the process? to have some faith to go forward?
Nama-rupa correctly understood is the culprit that creates consciousness?
Rupas are the mental events that arise when craving overwhelms. The longings for eye consciousness, ear consciousness, touch consciousness etc. 
I have had brief glimpses into what it is to be without the first fetter.
I think stream entry is a gradual process, not an All or None event.
The second fetter "clinging to rites and rituals?" I have lost the clinging for rites and rituals for quite some time.
As for the third fetter doubt?
I have no doubt as to what Buddha meant by Dependent Origination... it is  the relentless origination of suffering, when we retrieve and identify with mental images of things seen in the past, or recreate sounds heard in the past, or recreate things touched in the past....etc....
cling to these and bring about recurrent suffering.
Is it not within our capacity to stop for brief periods this process, by contemplating accurately on what goes on in the defiled mind?
What do you think? The Layout of SN 47.42 is brilliant, brief, 4 noble truths, SN12.63 (on feeding), and DO packed into one sutta.
I am satisfied with brief glimpses of what needs to be perfected.
I think stream entry is a gradual process.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Radix wrote
With generosity and goodwill.
This is mandatory, to make the progress.
How can we proceed when we are burdened by the hindrances?
Regarding my claim that
understanding of DO is the stepping stone?
you replied
Perhaps for some people.
But generally, no.
Many, if not most people attracted to Buddhism don't even know what "DO" stands for.
I cannot speak for other people.
With love :candle:
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:17 pm Radix wrote 
Without having attained stream entry, how could you possibly know that ("know" as in "know for yourself")?
I have not said that I have attained stream entry on this forum, nor have I said that I have not attained stream entry.
You don't have to reveal your status in open forums. I'm saying that per the doctrine, there are things one simply cannot know prior to attaining a particular stage.
So I have had glimpses of what it is like not to identify with a self. 
Is a glimpse not sufficient to know the truth Of the process?
No.
One could, for example, use drugs, or experience great pain, like when breaking a big bone, and in that state "feel one isn't identifying with a self", but that would not be the right kind of insight into anatta, for it wasn't arrived at the right way.
When an insight is arrived at the right way, it lasts and the experience can be repeated at will. The same cannot be said for insights arrived at via drugs or traumatic states.
to have some faith to go forward?
I suppose one can use those "glimpses" as faith to go forward. But it's also important to note that one's justifications for a particular pursuit (in this case, for "Buddhist practice") are likely going to be ad hoc, rationalizations, with a self-serving bias, and a hindsight bias.
Is it not within our capacity to stop for brief periods this process, by contemplating accurately on what goes on in the defiled mind?
But if your mind is defiled, how do you know you're contemplating accurately?
I am satisfied with brief glimpses of what needs to be perfected.
While I'm not. Case in point: Last year, I became violently ill. I didn't know it was even possible to feel that sick. I thought this is what dying feels like (except that dying will surely feel many times worse). I vomitted, I had diarrhea, my intestines hurt, I had a metallic taste in my mouth, and I just felt violently ill all over. And yet while all this was going on, there were brief periods where I felt somehow detached from the whole thing. I could describe it as a "glimpse into not-self". I was taken to the hospital, where they established I had a GI infection. They gave me an infusion of what had to be some very potent drug because I soon didn't feel any pain anymore and actually felt a bit cheerful, even if drowsy. The drug was so potent that I didn't feel the chronic pain in my knee that I otherwise have 24/7. And in that drug induced state, I also mentally kind of drifted away and felt there are only sensations, but no I. Sure enough in a few days, the drugs wore off, the pain in my knee came back, and my intestines were sore.

Drugs and trauma are definitely not the right way to arrive at insights, drugs and trauma ("drama", ha ha) are just too volatile, too unpredictable. But what is the right way? How can one possibly know this in advance? And how does one know that some particular method (a combination of knowledge and its application) has rendered the right result? One could be doing fine with a certain method, even for years, feel confident, and then something happens (like a GI infection) and everything crumbles. That's why I say, let's just go with the doctrine, and "I'll know it when I'll know it".
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Radix wrote
That's why I say, let's just go with the doctrine,
Was I not talking of the doctrine?
I referred to SN 47.42 which captured the essence of Paticca samuppada, 4 noble truths, and 4 nutrients.
Is there any other brief sutta that captures the doctrine in so few words?
How do you understand SN 47.42? Does it refer to a drug induced state.
Glad you are back with us, in good health. I wish you good health
always.
Take care :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Radix wrote
When an insight is arrived at the right way, it lasts
lasts how long? how do you know this? Is there a sutta that says this? Canon says such things should not be subjected to speculation.
You wrote
and the experience can be repeated at will.
At whose will? When the conditions are right, the experience will repeat itself, offering repeated exposure to signlessness, wishlessness, and non-vacillation.
What is the right way other than what is described in SN 47.42? MN 121 offers another route of residing in the void, which Buddha has praised too.
Good night, and Be Well! :candle:
justindesilva
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by justindesilva »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:48 am Radix wrote
When an insight is arrived at the right way, it lasts
lasts how long? how do you know this? Is there a sutta that says this? Canon says such things should not be subjected to speculation.
You wrote
and the experience can be repeated at will.
At whose will? When the conditions are right, the experience will repeat itself, offering repeated exposure to signlessness, wishlessness, and non-vacillation.
What is the right way other than what is described in SN 47.42? MN 121 offers another route of residing in the void, which Buddha has praised too.
Good night, and Be Well! :candle:
Read saddha sutta AN5.38 which compares sadda to a large banyan tree.
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