can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
dawn of peace
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:20 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:47 pm
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:33 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:52 am
Presumably anyone voluntarily taking part in pornography would be giving tacit consent for fantasies and masturbation. The mind boggles at how you would otherwise seek consent to fantasise about someone sexually, but I guess it would involve you in some interesting conversations!
how about people who fantasizing about strangers or their friends or masturbating on the pictures of celebrities or public figures in general?
Well, I guess you would have to fantasise about someone or something; I've never heard of a "formless masturbation". (But I'm ©️ that phrase!) The same applies - no formal breach of precept, but some would consider it unwise if one values celibacy.
It was said that four factors in needed in order to break the third precept:1,knowing there is a forbidden woman,2.intention to have sex with the forbidden woman,3.effort to have sex the forbidden woman,4.the sexual intercourse happen as a result.

the precept will not be broken if no sexual intercourse take place and not all four factors are fulfilled,but if first two factors are fulfilled, the precept can be corrupted.

is sexual fantasies considered to be intention? can watching porn or masturbation considered to be effort?
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:47 pm
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:33 pm

how about people who fantasizing about strangers or their friends or masturbating on the pictures of celebrities or public figures in general?
Well, I guess you would have to fantasise about someone or something; I've never heard of a "formless masturbation". (But I'm ©️ that phrase!) The same applies - no formal breach of precept, but some would consider it unwise if one values celibacy.
It was said that four factors in needed in order to break the third precept:1,knowing there is a forbidden woman,2.intention to have sex with the forbidden woman,3.effort to have sex the forbidden woman,4.the sexual intercourse happen as a result.

the precept will not be broken if no sexual intercourse take place and not all four factors are fulfilled,but if first two factors are fulfilled, the precept can be corrupted.

is sexual fantasies considered to be intention? can watching porn or masturbation considered to be effort?
I would say no. There is no intention in a fantasy, other than to fantasise; there is effort involved, but it's not directed to the breaking of the precept.
User avatar
dawn of peace
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:20 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:10 pm In traditional countries, praiseworthy, even stars, if appearing to sexy, whould be blamed and have to bear consequences. Public talks on such issues are shameful.
a lot of things that men do in those traditional countries are not even praiseworthy at all. men in such cultures blame women for appearing to be sexy not because they have more self control. They oppress women by controlling women's sexual expression. The more they consider female bodies to be taboo, the more hidden rape culture is.
Yours doesn't live under good conditions and soon will infect all other parts. It's not at all praiseworthy to approach a topic from the wrong side, and one should remember his "liberality" when reading news of misconducts...
men in liberal countries, at least know how to respect women's choice, unlike a lot of men in traditional countries, just treat women as sexual objects.
The fact that the global human moral sinks and sensual attachment highly increases doesn't mean that the timeless Dhamma increases.
this depend on what morality mean. many things that considered to be moral in traditional countries, are actually immoral in liberal countries.
Good to fear it a lot to possible act as rapper. Prison and shame, or beaten to death, are the most lightest effects of conducting wrong in the world.
those things are even more common in traditional countries, such as India and Muslim countries. rape is very common in India. Many women in Muslim countries were imprison or put to death for losing their virginity before marriage.
No normal western men would condone such practice.It is ironic that a lot of Asian Buddhists reluctant to condemn the way that non Buddhist men oppress women.
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

dawn of peace wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 ammen in liberal countries, at least know how to respect women's choice, unlike a lot of men in traditional countries, just treat women as sexual objects.
While "men in liberal countries" treat women like sex toilets, as containers into which they excrete their semen. How nice!
this depend on what morality mean. many things that considered to be moral in traditional countries, are actually immoral in liberal countries.
Indeed. In "liberal countries", it is immoral for a woman to want to live with at least some dignity.
those things are even more common in traditional countries, such as India and Muslim countries. rape is very common in India. Many women in Muslim countries were imprison or put to death for losing their virginity before marriage.
No normal western men would condone such practice.
Indeed. Women must serve liberal men as their sex toilets.
It is ironic that a lot of Asian Buddhists reluctant to condemn the way that non Buddhist men oppress women.
Did you ask them why they are thusly reluctant?
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by pegembara »

Radix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:32 pm
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
This should be a no-brainer.

If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it.
Do parents tell their children everything they do? :thinking:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by pegembara »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:47 pm
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:33 pm

how about people who fantasizing about strangers or their friends or masturbating on the pictures of celebrities or public figures in general?
Well, I guess you would have to fantasise about someone or something; I've never heard of a "formless masturbation". (But I'm ©️ that phrase!) The same applies - no formal breach of precept, but some would consider it unwise if one values celibacy.
It was said that four factors in needed in order to break the third precept:1,knowing there is a forbidden woman,2.intention to have sex with the forbidden woman,3.effort to have sex the forbidden woman,4.the sexual intercourse happen as a result.

the precept will not be broken if no sexual intercourse take place and not all four factors are fulfilled,but if first two factors are fulfilled, the precept can be corrupted.

is sexual fantasies considered to be intention? can watching porn or masturbation considered to be effort?
As a general rule, if no one gets hurt, it is allowable. You don't have an affair with another's wife, girlfriend, underaged daughter or an unwilling partner and that includes arranged marriages. Don't do unto others what you don't want to be done to yourself, you know. The 3rd precept is not for saints but for decent people. And decent people have fantasies and dreams.

IMO.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by SarathW »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept? No, even though it is unwholesome
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent? No, It is unwholesome even with the subject knowledge or consent,
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married? No, even though it is unwholesome.
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent? No, even though it is unwholesome.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Dhammapardon
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Dhammapardon »

With sensitivity to the mind and body, how does the act done make you feel? Is there discomfort in the mind and body for before/during/after doing these things? I think if the question is asked, there may be some discomfort. If there is discomfort, it may be of benefit to examine where the discomfort comes from. I think maybe the answer can be discovered for oneself with careful examination.

For me I learned I don't feel good when doing something so I do it less and less and eventually stop. Not by force, but by careful examination of discomfort.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammapardon wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:17 pm With sensitivity to the mind and body, how does the act done make you feel? Is there discomfort in the mind and body for before/during/after doing these things? I think if the question is asked, there may be some discomfort. If there is discomfort, it may be of benefit to examine where the discomfort comes from. I think maybe the answer can be discovered for oneself with careful examination.

For me I learned I don't feel good when doing something so I do it less and less and eventually stop. Not by force, but by careful examination of discomfort.
In other words, you have seen the gratification, drawbacks, and escape.
:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

pegembara wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:49 am
Radix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:32 pmThis should be a no-brainer.

If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it.
Do parents tell their children everything they do?
How can you even suggest something like that?? Children are not equal to their parents.

It's a basic moral principle: If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it. It's the most basic form of shame.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by pegembara »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:16 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:49 am
Radix wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:32 pmThis should be a no-brainer.

If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it.
Do parents tell their children everything they do?
How can you even suggest something like that?? Children are not equal to their parents.

It's a basic moral principle: If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it. It's the most basic form of shame.
We are not actually talking about children but adult children of adults.
Big difference! I am assuming there are no children reading these posts. :smile:

Buddhism is not about blaming and shaming and being prudish.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
Mumfie
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:43 pm

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Mumfie »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:16 pm It's a basic moral principle: If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it. It's the most basic form of shame.
I think there are too many exceptions for this to come anywhere close to qualifying as "a basic moral principle". There will be exceptions in any kind of matter where the majority view of the younger generation departs from that of the majority view of their parents.

For example, most of my generation (including me) believe that homosexuality is ok, while most of my parents' generation (including my own parents) believe it to be either a moral vice or a mental disease. Now if I were gay myself, I probably wouldn't let my parents know about it, but my reticence in this matter wouldn't be motivated by shame but merely by a wish to avoid disappointing my parents and provoking a family rift.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
User avatar
dawn of peace
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:20 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:16 pm How can you even suggest something like that?? Children are not equal to their parents.
It's a basic moral principle: If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it. It's the most basic form of shame.
The Buddha did not just do whatever his parent told him to do.

If The Buddha only did whatever his parent told him to do, he would not left his family in order to seek the path to liberation.
User avatar
Johann
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

dawn of peace wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:52 am
Radix wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:16 pm How can you even suggest something like that?? Children are not equal to their parents.
It's a basic moral principle: If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it. It's the most basic form of shame.
The Buddha did not just do whatever his parent told him to do.
Yes, good householder: they wanted him to enjoy sensual pleasures, go after "porn and mastubation", just keep "Silas". But he didn't follow what was corrupt, and left, even his wife.

Nobody, wise, wouldn't encourage to follow bad and unskilful, even of parents. "Don't like" doesn't mean it's bad and unskilful.
If The Buddha only did whatever his parent told him to do, he would not left his family in order to seek the path to liberation.
When one follows what people at large regard as family, parents, in this Sasana, one wouldn't leave one's family and fellows in sensuality and strive to join those on path or liberated, good householder.

It's a different, when asking a question, whether one seeks help and advices to overcome his last doubts (for better) or to get support for one's defilements, incapacities.

Whom would/did/does he prefer?

That's, even if one has perfect Sila, Vinaya, (outwardly), why one is still object to animal womb, peta-realm (hungy ghosts), hell: wrong view => wrong resolve => wrong Sila.

Good to observe the village dogs good, to get annoyed, possible soon disenchanted.
Last edited by DNS on Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: off topic meta-discussion removed
User avatar
mario92
Posts: 986
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:37 am

Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by mario92 »

By personal experience it is a bad action, it is like being envious, desiring something that is not yours. I think is the 8th of the 10 bad actions you should not do. It is catalogued as mental kamma, that brings bad results. I dont think it should be a between stage without partner, having partner would be the ideal, that way you would know how it really is. That way you would think only on your partner also.
Post Reply