In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Milinda
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In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Milinda »

'You are not, O Bhikkhus, to put the word of the Buddhas into (Sanskrit) verse.
Whosoever does so, shall be guilty of a dukkata. I allow you, O Bhikkhus, to
learn the word of the Buddhas each in his own dialect 1.'


I think this is one of the greatest teachigns of Buddha and not enough understood. Maybe because in this forum buddhists are from christian backgrounds or majority buddhist countries as Thailand where muslims are a minority and irrelevant in society.

I think that Siddharta knew and wanted to prevent the Dharma to end in the same place that Islam has fallen in it. A total contradiction and in some kind of invisible arabic-top based hierarchy.

Islam is the 2º world religion, and perhaps is the most practised one (christianity is in decadence). I've lived in Egypt and when you talk with muslims you can hear claims like; Arabic is the language spoken by God, the language of Paradise, etc.
So only the Quran is in arabic, other things is a corruption or misleading.



But at the same time when muslims try to convert people, they say to you that Islam is the simplest religion on earth to practise. But at the same time when something bad is done by some-muslims (avoiding genrealisations) and a non-muslim critisises some passage of the Quran, they will tell you, that you don't speak arabic, so they and you are doing a bad-interpretation of certain passages. This is a total contradiction, if is so simple, why only an elite group of arabic-speaker is able to apply the Coran?

So if the Pali Canon, Kangyu, etc, would have been only writen, recited and understood in Sanskrit it would become a totaly misleading creed.

In my opinion.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Crazy cloud »

Truth has no dialect, and it doesn't do anything to be true, so speak whatever language you like, or keep still and let the truth speak for itself through you.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
justindesilva
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by justindesilva »

Crazy cloud wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:44 pm Truth has no dialect, and it doesn't do anything to be true, so speak whatever language you like, or keep still and let the truth speak for itself through you.
a Jew and an arab walked together with the old testament. The jew turned west while the arab turned east. And walked alone. If otherwise jews would be having the oilfields and the quran and the arabs the world of trade and the bible . Both are still fighting.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Crazy cloud »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:18 pm
Crazy cloud wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:44 pm Truth has no dialect, and it doesn't do anything to be true, so speak whatever language you like, or keep still and let the truth speak for itself through you.
a Jew and an arab walked together with the old testament. The jew turned west while the arab turned east. And walked alone. If otherwise jews would be having the oilfields and the quran and the arabs the world of trade and the bible . Both are still fighting.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
Bundokji
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Bundokji »

I am not sure if i can follow you reasoning or analogy with Islam. What you quoted is from the vinaya, which is relevant only for monastics. It is the same elitism that exists in Hinduism , or Abrahamic religions. Certain languages were more relevant to the learned, or certain casts. It is more to be expected to have sanskrit learned by the Brahmins cast in Hinduism, or Latin among Christian theologian, or Hebrew among Jewish Rabbis. In fact, Hebrew was almost extinct before establishing modern Israel, where most Jewish people spoke Yiddish.

The only exception in that regard is Arabic, which was the common language of Arabic tribes where Islam emerged. Thinking of the Quran as a linguistic miracle has to do with Bedouin Arabs being skilled in poetry at that time, so a linguistic miracle served as a challenge in what people were skilled at, akin to Moses challenging the Egyptians in Magic, or Jesus challenging through Medicine/healing.

The elitism in Ancient Islam was more tribal than ethnic. The rivalry between the tribe of Hashim and the tribe of Umayyah marked Islamic history even before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The division between Muslim Arab and Mulsim Ajam emerged after the conquest of Persia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajam

The above has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam



As to the relationship to Buddhism, the belief that it is a religion of universal equality seems to be questionable. I opened an old thread about something similar a while ago:

viewtopic.php?t=43536
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Milinda
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Milinda »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:47 pm I am not sure if i can follow you reasoning or analogy with Islam. What you quoted is from the vinaya, which is relevant only for monastics. It is the same elitism that exists in Hinduism , or Abrahamic religions. Certain languages were more relevant to the learned, or certain casts. It is more to be expected to have sanskrit learned by the Brahmins cast in Hinduism, or Latin among Christian theologian, or Hebrew among Jewish Rabbis. In fact, Hebrew was almost extinct before establishing modern Israel, where most Jewish people spoke Yiddish.

The only exception in that regard is Arabic, which was the common language of Arabic tribes where Islam emerged. Thinking of the Quran as a linguistic miracle has to do with Bedouin Arabs being skilled in poetry at that time, so a linguistic miracle served as a challenge in what people were skilled at, akin to Moses challenging the Egyptians in Magic, or Jesus challenging through Medicine/healing.

The elitism in Ancient Islam was more tribal than ethnic. The rivalry between the tribe of Hashim and the tribe of Umayyah marked Islamic history even before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The division between Muslim Arab and Mulsim Ajam emerged after the conquest of Persia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajam

The above has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam



As to the relationship to Buddhism, the belief that it is a religion of universal equality seems to be questionable. I opened an old thread about something similar a while ago:

viewtopic.php?t=43536
Yes, there is no difference between 3jam and arab as long the ajam accepts the soveranity of arab caliphs and arab Islam rules his life XD.

While the others claim that their rule is above all beings and other laws because arabic is the language of Firdaus (heaven) and it comes from God.
Bundokji
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Bundokji »

Milinda wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:06 am Yes, there is no difference between 3jam and arab as long the ajam accepts the soveranity of arab caliphs and arab Islam rules his life XD.

While the others claim that their rule is above all beings and other laws because arabic is the language of Firdaus (heaven) and it comes from God.
Most Arabs lived under the rule of the rule of the Ottomans (Turks) for 400 years with no major problems.

Islam was a unifying factor among Arab tribes, but ethnicity became a divisive factor later on especially with the Persians. This is the nature of god/brahma, it divides and unites at the same time :rolleye:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Milinda
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:26 pm

Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Milinda »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:12 am
Milinda wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:06 am Yes, there is no difference between 3jam and arab as long the ajam accepts the soveranity of arab caliphs and arab Islam rules his life XD.

While the others claim that their rule is above all beings and other laws because arabic is the language of Firdaus (heaven) and it comes from God.
Most Arabs lived under the rule of the rule of the Ottomans (Turks) for 400 years with no major problems.

Islam was a unifying factor among Arab tribes, but ethnicity became a divisive factor later on especially with the Persians. This is the nature of god/brahma, it divides and unites at the same time :rolleye:
Yes, but ottomans made the last abbasid of Egypt to give them them title of Khalifa by force.

Also in muslim world they invent their ancestry claiming non arabs to be "Sayid" descendant of the prophet in order to climb inside that system.
Bundokji
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Bundokji »

Milinda wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:29 am Yes, but ottomans made the last abbasid of Egypt to give them them title of Khalifa by force.

Also in muslim world they invent their ancestry claiming non arabs to be "Sayid" descendant of the prophet in order to climb inside that system.
The Abbasid took the khelafa from the Umayyad by force, both were Arab!

Not all Arabs belong to Bani Hashim. Some claim that the British Royal family are the descendants of king David :jumping:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Red Belly
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Re: In my opinion one of the greatest Tathagatha teachings / Forbidding sanskrit as a monopoly / The analogy with Islam

Post by Red Belly »

Not much to add to this except to say that history has many examples of people pushing the silly notion that there is one "pure" tongue, one most pleasing to God, etc. Let's see, depending on whom one is listening to, this supreme language is Arabic, Latin, Coptic, Pali, Sanscrit, Greek...The list goes on and on. Unsurprisingly, this language nearly always seems to be the language they speak themselves. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize all this is complete nonsense.

As was said above, truth has no language.
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