How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

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PeaceLover
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How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by PeaceLover »

Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?

And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?

Would love to hear about any personal experiences too!
santa100
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by santa100 »

PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?

And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?

Would love to hear about any personal experiences too!
I don't see why not. If their Kamma is good enough for them to attain the Noble stage, it should be auspicious enough to protect them from society's afflictive nature.

Obviously I'm no stream-enterer, and it'd take a fellow Stream-Enterer to know for sure if one is a Stream-Enterer. But s/he should be able to notice how perfect one is in terms of observing the precepts, at the very least, the Five Precepts.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Unfortunately at this moment, I don't have the time or focus to answer this question more in depth at this moment and won't for sometime, but can only answer this superficially and quickly.

- "Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?"

It's possible for non-ordained stream enterers to function in a normal society. There's many examples of this in the sutta's. Now as without being afflicted by the nature of the society. The answer is yes and no. Yes as in that we always have some form of control of how we react and perceive things in this world, let's just call this the inner world. So we can choose to practice nekkhamma, karuna, mudita in our everyday lives no matter if one is ordained or not or what happens in the outer world.

No in that sometimes stream enterers are afflicted by the nature of the society which one has really no control over like the "outer world" or outer circumstances. For instance, one's culture norms, expectations being placed on us by family members, job occupations, countries law's and government policies, etc . . .

But no matter what the outer circumstances are for a sotapanna (stream enterer), it would never affect their inner world (lobha, dosa, moha thoughts and actions) to a degree that they would commit any akusala deeds that would send them to the apaya's, since they are free of the apaya's FOREVER.

- "And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?"

Only a Buddha or the person themselves know if they are truly a sotapanna. All I can say is that in the sutta's, there's a teaching about how there was this person that was a drinker of alcohol. Pretty much everyone thought there was no way the drinker could be a sotapanna, but the Buddha mentioned that he was a sotapanna. So there's no way with certainty that anyone can say or tell a certain person is an ariya.

But by discerning what other Buddhist teachers or practitioners say about the Buddha Dhamma, especially the core teachings such as the 4 noble truths, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc. . . we can get an idea if they are on the right path or have the right understanding of the Buddha Dhamma and if one should be learning from them . . .

I hope this helps a little as I'm not able to give a more in depth answer at this time.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

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SDC
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by SDC »

PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?

And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?

Would love to hear about any personal experiences too!
There are many cases in the suttas of stream entrants departing from a discourse and returning to their regular responsibilities. There is also a very impressive case of Ugga who continued as a layman as an anagami (although he did tell his wives he would no longer go to bed with them).

As far as being afflicted by the nature of society, it seems that affliction (and others) drove them to seek knowledge in the first place, and the development of ariya was, to an extent, an alleviation more so than an acquisition that would broaden their perspective. In other words, they were probably already disenchanted with the world, and although the gain of stream entry would be representative of further disenchantment and dispassion, I do not think it is life altering in the manner you are asking. The life was altered through a recognition of their own liability to suffering while living dependent on sense pleasures and acquisition, and that seems to be something that occurs prior to effort - it is the urgency that pushed them to seek for answers.

Although, it does seem as though there were cases of stream entrants who did not necessarily possess such urgency, but still had enough wisdom for the realization. But while they developed extraordinary wisdom and perspective on account of their efforts to understand, I’m not sure how susceptible they would be to an affliction from the world afterwards. It seems that for the lay stream entrant the only affliction would be that remaining attachment to sensuality, for which they may not posses the urgency to deal with. The right view would protect them, in a sense, from blaming the “beautiful things in the world”. They would know that they are afflicted to the extent that they are unable to push to the degree of arahantship, and would know that it is their own undeveloped faculties preventing further progress. That could induce the urgency to leave the lay life, but again, responsibility would not be misunderstood as being external - they can never again ignore that it is their own choices and actions that are preventing further progress.

I do imagine this would make it problematic when they interact with others. If they have no interest in sharing their views they would be sure to be relatively non-confrontational and not advertise the attributes of a development that very few others would comprehend. So, even if the other person detected something odd or fascinating, it would be limited to that person’s degree of development. Sure, the other person may appreciate or loathe it greatly, but unless they are super knowledgeable about the Dhamma or have right view themselves, they wouldn’t be able to gauge just how extraordinary it is.

Hope this is helpful. I can pull some sutta references later if you need them. There are quite a few that meet the above criteria.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
DinhTheBao
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by DinhTheBao »

Unless you come into contact with a Stream Enterer when he or she has just attained the Phala, or talk deeply with them about the Dharma, otherwise it will be very difficult for you to distinguish them from ordinary people. But if you talk deeply with them, you will see that their worldview is similar to the one described by the Buddha in the Bahiya Sutta.

They have an intuitive understanding of how samsara works. In addition, they also have an intuitive understanding of the Dharma, Nirvana, and how to reach it. Even if they lose all memories of the Dharma, with that intuition they can enter Nirvana on their own. Samadhi becomes instinctive, but it is not as profound as Jhana. They still enjoy entertainment, but they instinctively understand that it's empty and will end.

Behaviorally, the person tends to continue the actions before attaining the Phala. They still have evil thoughts in their heads, but they don't grasp them, and at the same time feel ashamed of them. They also tend to hate breaking the five precepts, and feel deeply regretful when they do. Basically, they only have a worldview approach to the Buddha.
Citta Trust
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by Citta Trust »

It is easy to think that when you attain sotapatti, you will glide through to Arahantship.... maybe even sensually indulge your way

However, this is not possible... you would merely increase your suffering this way as the vale has been lifted.. the harsh limitations of reality will come back to bite you even quicker than for a putujana

Also, Kammicly speaking, surely one would find it essier to find the right teacher, a fellow noble just by the good karma generated in experiencing the deathless state
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by form »

PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?

And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?

Would love to hear about any personal experiences too!
:goodpost:
Interesting. I always want to know that.
SarathW
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by SarathW »

It is quite possible for a stream enter to be just a normal person in the society.
In my opinion that the stream entrant will only be another reasonable person in the eyes of his associates.
However stream enter will display unusual act of Metta, Karuana, Mudita and Upekkha.
As Santa pointed out you will notice that this person will observe the five precepts.

In Sri Lanka many people believe that the next president of Sri Lanka will be Anura Kumara.
He openly declared he observe the five precepts.
He is a mathematics graduate and was the president of the University Buddhist association.
Perhaps he could be a stream entrant.
The future will tell whether it is possible.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?
Somewhat, but the bigger challenge would be that it would slow their progress.
PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?
Probably less in common, less interest in "the world". More interested in what will help them progress. The tension between the world and that which transcends it could bring suffering if not managed well. See: The Weight of Nobility. It's not necessary an "easy yoke".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by form »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:04 am Greetings,
PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm Is it possible for the non-ordained stream entrants to function in a normal society without being afflicted by the nature of the society?
Somewhat, but the bigger challenge would be that it would slow their progress.
PeaceLover wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:14 pm And do the people associating with the stream entrants detect something different about them?
Probably less in common, less interest in "the world". More interested in what will help them progress. The tension between the world and that which transcends it could bring suffering if not managed well. See: The Weight of Nobility. It's not necessary an "easy yoke".

Metta,
Paul. :)
:goodpost: thanks for sharing.
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Re: How does a Stream entrant function in the society?

Post by Bundokji »

Aversion towards society is nothing special. It is a matter of finding people who share similar interests. If there is any authenticity in the stream enterer experience, it has to be towards "fakeness" rather than society. Take the idea of romantic love as an example, where people no less naturally inclined into it, but making an effort to further romanticized it. So, the tendency to fabricate what is already fabricated has to stop. In the context of of the teachings, disillusionment or "samvega" can be vulnerable to the same pathetic tendency of fabricating originality.

Instead of a fake aloofness towards society, the teachings offer a natural alternative through kamma. One who is interested in the sublime would be naturally inclined towards people who are either represent such qualities or aspire towards it.

There is a monk who made a distinction between "fake" and "original fake". I guess the former is the turning of a blind eye towards the reality of fabrications, and the later is being aware of it.

In brief, there is nothing intrinsically praiseworthy in aloofness towards society. I guess only non-returners and arahants are entitled to claim being better, and i doubt they ever do it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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