Who is a Buddhist?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:20 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:21 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:00 pm

I'm not deflecting. If you want to use dictionary definitions, then you need to be aware of the consequences. Either we trust a community-based view on how words are correctly used, or we don't.

If we trust one person's view of the special authority it gives them to pronounce on such matters, then one could claim that their own knowledge surpasses yours, and the ariyas are in fact all very religious.
What is the “community” definition? Is this like what is a woman territory? Where it’s politically incorrect to answer?
In this context, the term "community" means those who use the word, and thereby constitute its meaning. In the case of "religion", it's those who use the word in everyday language. In the case of "sotapanna", it's Nyanaponika, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Goenka, Ajahns Thanissaro, Sujato, Sumedho, Sucitto, and Punnadhammo, among others, Richard Gombrich, and everyone on Dhamma Wheel who took issue with you. Plus, I dare say, a whole lot more.

Of course, one can always insist that all the others are wrong, and you alone are right. But if you do, you can hardly insist that a dictionary definition is authoritative.
I would like to know we are talking of apples and apples and not apples and oranges.
From the descriptions of passing through the insight knowledges of mahasi sayadaw this seems to perfectly my definition of sotapanna and experience of Nibanna. This was the verified by bhante Guneratana and a couple teachers at Vipassana long course through standard questions and answers.
This is not an unachievable goal although not common.
Now.... since this I have observed that I can still kill. This is a fact, so something is worth exploring in traditional definitions of sotapatti. My reasons for publicly exploring this is no secret, there are those who say one should not declare achievements, I am simply disputing that by saying there are those who can and do.

I am still operating from a standard set of definitions with the words I use.
You have not yet defined a Buddhist?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:20 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:21 pm

What is the “community” definition? Is this like what is a woman territory? Where it’s politically incorrect to answer?
In this context, the term "community" means those who use the word, and thereby constitute its meaning. In the case of "religion", it's those who use the word in everyday language. In the case of "sotapanna", it's Nyanaponika, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Goenka, Ajahns Thanissaro, Sujato, Sumedho, Sucitto, and Punnadhammo, among others, Richard Gombrich, and everyone on Dhamma Wheel who took issue with you. Plus, I dare say, a whole lot more.

Of course, one can always insist that all the others are wrong, and you alone are right. But if you do, you can hardly insist that a dictionary definition is authoritative.
I would like to know we are talking of apples and apples and not apples and oranges.
From the descriptions of passing through the insight knowledges of mahasi sayadaw this seems to perfectly my definition of sotapanna and experience of Nibanna. This was the verified by bhante Guneratana and a couple teachers at Vipassana long course through standard questions and answers.
This is not an unachievable goal although not common.
Now.... since this I have observed that I can still kill. This is a fact, so something is worth exploring in traditional definitions of sotapatti. My reasons for publicly exploring this is no secret, there are those who say one should not declare achievements, I am simply disputing that by saying there are those who can and do.

I am still operating from a standard set of definitions with the words I use.
Yet you are at odds with all those people specified above, and probably more than 99% of the Buddhists in the world. That's your prerogative, of course. There are many people who are ignorant of how particular terms are used, or pretend to use them in a way which makes no sense to those who use the terms correctly. As I say, I'm merely pointing out that if you do that, then you can't really treat dictionaries as authorities.
You have not yet defined a Buddhist?
I've said my piece on p.2 of this thread.
thepea
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:51 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:20 pm

In this context, the term "community" means those who use the word, and thereby constitute its meaning. In the case of "religion", it's those who use the word in everyday language. In the case of "sotapanna", it's Nyanaponika, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Goenka, Ajahns Thanissaro, Sujato, Sumedho, Sucitto, and Punnadhammo, among others, Richard Gombrich, and everyone on Dhamma Wheel who took issue with you. Plus, I dare say, a whole lot more.

Of course, one can always insist that all the others are wrong, and you alone are right. But if you do, you can hardly insist that a dictionary definition is authoritative.
I would like to know we are talking of apples and apples and not apples and oranges.
From the descriptions of passing through the insight knowledges of mahasi sayadaw this seems to perfectly my definition of sotapanna and experience of Nibanna. This was the verified by bhante Guneratana and a couple teachers at Vipassana long course through standard questions and answers.
This is not an unachievable goal although not common.
Now.... since this I have observed that I can still kill. This is a fact, so something is worth exploring in traditional definitions of sotapatti. My reasons for publicly exploring this is no secret, there are those who say one should not declare achievements, I am simply disputing that by saying there are those who can and do.

I am still operating from a standard set of definitions with the words I use.
Yet you are at odds with all those people specified above, and probably more than 99% of the Buddhists in the world. That's your prerogative, of course. There are many people who are ignorant of how particular terms are used, or pretend to use them in a way which makes no sense to those who use the terms correctly. As I say, I'm merely pointing out that if you do that, then you can't really treat dictionaries as authorities.
You have not yet defined a Buddhist?
I've said my piece on p.2 of this thread.
Nothing has been produced to me via sutta or another who says that a sota cannot kill.
But this is off topic, more appropriately we are looking to discover exactly what a Buddhist is.
Could you repost your page two comment that defines this?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by Coëmgenu »

No, ThePea, you're just pretending that no one has refuted you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:51 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:36 pm

I would like to know we are talking of apples and apples and not apples and oranges.
From the descriptions of passing through the insight knowledges of mahasi sayadaw this seems to perfectly my definition of sotapanna and experience of Nibanna. This was the verified by bhante Guneratana and a couple teachers at Vipassana long course through standard questions and answers.
This is not an unachievable goal although not common.
Now.... since this I have observed that I can still kill. This is a fact, so something is worth exploring in traditional definitions of sotapatti. My reasons for publicly exploring this is no secret, there are those who say one should not declare achievements, I am simply disputing that by saying there are those who can and do.

I am still operating from a standard set of definitions with the words I use.
Yet you are at odds with all those people specified above, and probably more than 99% of the Buddhists in the world. That's your prerogative, of course. There are many people who are ignorant of how particular terms are used, or pretend to use them in a way which makes no sense to those who use the terms correctly. As I say, I'm merely pointing out that if you do that, then you can't really treat dictionaries as authorities.
You have not yet defined a Buddhist?
I've said my piece on p.2 of this thread.
Nothing has been produced to me via sutta or another who says that a sota cannot kill.
It's unlikely to be, as I have often pointed out to you that sota means an ear, or a stream.
But this is off topic, more appropriately we are looking to discover exactly what a Buddhist is.
I'm not. I'm just providing a reminder that those who depart from established use when using a term can't really rely on dictionary definitions, because dictionary definitions are just records of established use.
thepea
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:22 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:51 pm

Yet you are at odds with all those people specified above, and probably more than 99% of the Buddhists in the world. That's your prerogative, of course. There are many people who are ignorant of how particular terms are used, or pretend to use them in a way which makes no sense to those who use the terms correctly. As I say, I'm merely pointing out that if you do that, then you can't really treat dictionaries as authorities.



I've said my piece on p.2 of this thread.
Nothing has been produced to me via sutta or another who says that a sota cannot kill.
It's unlikely to be, as I have often pointed out to you that sota means an ear, or a stream.
But this is off topic, more appropriately we are looking to discover exactly what a Buddhist is.
I'm not. I'm just providing a reminder that those who depart from established use when using a term can't really rely on dictionary definitions, because dictionary definitions are just records of established use.
So you cannot define Buddhist?

Here is dictionary definition:
an adherent of the religion based on the teachings of Buddha.

So then we must define religion:
A “belief” in .....
Or faith in.....

So can we agree on this?
If not I fear we are into “what is a woman” territory.
thepea
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by thepea »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:18 pm No, ThePea, you're just pretending that no one has refuted you.
No, I absolutely can see that there is a great deal of aversion towards my claim.
What I am saying is that when the written word is placed in front of me through suttas etc... I find nothing stating that a sotapanna cannot kill. And in fact it seems Buddha wrote of the specific type of killing a sotapanna cannot take part in, which I agree with.
But again this is steering this thread off topic.
I’m more looking for the definition of Buddhist?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:35 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:22 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:06 pm
Nothing has been produced to me via sutta or another who says that a sota cannot kill.
It's unlikely to be, as I have often pointed out to you that sota means an ear, or a stream.
But this is off topic, more appropriately we are looking to discover exactly what a Buddhist is.
I'm not. I'm just providing a reminder that those who depart from established use when using a term can't really rely on dictionary definitions, because dictionary definitions are just records of established use.
So you cannot define Buddhist?
I'm not interested in doing so, thanks. Responding to the posts here, I've had my say regarding Ledi Sayadaw's definition, and your inconsistency in relying on dictionary definitions as authorities.
thepea
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by thepea »

A Buddhist is not a physical thing. It is a mental construct.
So anything with the mental capacity can identify as a Buddhist.
An elephant is an elephant, a man is a man, and a rhinoceros is a rhinoceros. These are physical things which each have unique physical qualities.
If anyone wants to play the “I’m a Buddhist” identity game then this is true to them. There is no physical property that identifies one as Buddhist. Even one dressed in robes carrying alms bowl could simply be a man in costume or a simple beggar.
Buddhist is a mental belief, or religious belief. This type of belief has zero to do with dhamma teachings.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
thepea wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:26 pm There is no physical property that identifies one as Buddhist.
No, but there is the going for refuge.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
thepea
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by thepea »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 5:23 am Greetings,
thepea wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:26 pm There is no physical property that identifies one as Buddhist.
No, but there is the going for refuge.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Taking refuge in the trinity is not Buddhist.

Buddha, dhamma, sangha
Father, son, Holy Ghost
Awareness, body, mind
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Radix
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by Radix »

Who is a Buddhist?

Someone who believes that the problem of suffering is the most relevant problem (and thus the only one worth solving) and who believes that death (of the body) does not make an end to suffering.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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samsarayoga
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Re: Who is a Buddhist?

Post by samsarayoga »

Someone who understands the dhamma. Or as in my country, someone who's faith is written so on their ID card.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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