Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

[sunnat]

The last thing Buddha said was that all composed (dependently originated) things decay which is another way of saying sabbe sankhara anicca. Further he exhorted disciples to strive ardently which is another way of saying ‘maintain continuous awareness of anicca’. The result is the end of suffering.

[Ceisiwr]

The last thing Buddha said was that all composed (dependently originated) things decay which is another way of saying sabbe sankhara anicca. Further he exhorted disciples to strive ardently which is another way of saying ‘maintain continuous awareness of anicca’. The result is the end of suffering.

Indeed, but whilst alive Buddhas and Arahants still have a body. A body is suffering. Its the basis for disease and much pain, and it is impermanent. It's dependently originated.

Suppose there was a woman or man who was young, youthful, and fond of adornments, and had bathed their head. If the corpse of a snake or a dog or a human were hung around their neck, they’d be horrified, repelled, and disgusted. In the same way, I’m horrified, repelled, and disgusted by this rotten body. Someone who had not established mindfulness of the body might well attack one of their spiritual companions and leave without saying sorry.

Suppose someone was to carry around a bowl of fat that was leaking and oozing from holes and cracks. In the same way, I carry around this body that’s leaking and oozing from holes and cracks. Someone who had not established mindfulness of the body might well attack one of their spiritual companions and leave without saying sorry.”

https://suttacentral.net/an9.11/en/suja ... ript=latin

[Ceisiwr]

At Sāvatthī.

Then a mendicant went up to the Buddha … and asked him, “Sir, may the Buddha please teach me Dhamma in brief. When I’ve heard it, I’ll live alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute.”

“Mendicant, give up desire for anything that’s suffering.”

“Understood, Blessed One! Understood, Holy One!”

“But how do you see the detailed meaning of my brief statement?”

“Sir, form is suffering; I should give up desire for it.

Feeling …

Perception …

Choices …

Consciousness is suffering; I should give up desire for it.

That’s how I understand the detailed meaning of the Buddha’s brief statement.”

“Good, good, mendicant! It’s good that you understand the detailed meaning of what I’ve said in brief like this.

Form is suffering; you should give up desire for it.

Feeling …

Perception …

Choices …

Consciousness is suffering; you should give up desire for it.

This is how to understand the detailed meaning of what I said in brief.” …

And that mendicant became one of the perfected.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.67/en/suj ... ript=latin

[pegembara]

I’m going to end this post by asking everyone a question. Does impermanence / inconsistency / change “ALWAYS” lead to suffering? Key word is “ALWAYS”.

Surely not. What is dukkha is not getting what you want and getting what you don't want! Anicca is just the aggregates doing their thing, regardless of whether a Buddha is around or not ie. orderliness of dhamma.

We all want to get rid of pain and sickness permanently which is against the law of nature. Fortunately, they are also impermanent! Unfortunately, their disappearance is also impermanent.
With anicca, there is no safety.

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

[SarathW]

The OP question is a very old question debated over the last ten years of my stay in this forum.
I have listened to many monks who interpret this in both ways.
So I do not have a concrete understanding of the meaning of this.
So I have given up the effort to find the exact meaning but trying to understand the underline message.

The knowledge of Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta was there even before Buddha's time.
Many people believed that the body is impermanent but the mind is permanent.
What Buddha discover was that the mind was also impermanent.
So we can stop this continuing circle of Samsara.

It appears over the years the interpretation of Buddha was mixed up with the pre-Buddhist interpretation.

I would say that the mind of Arahant is impermanent as it will not arise again after his death (Parinibbana)
However, it is inconstant while he is alive.
The mind of non-arahant is inconstant always as it arises again in another form.

[mjaviem]

...

... But if you realize that the mountain often has earthquakes and landslides, you’d be wise to decide not to build your house there after all...

...

So you think it's like the venerable believes?:We should desist from searching permanence because there will always be a new reason explaining why what you found is not permanent?

We cleverly imagined a reason why a mountain is impermanent. Now, what about the sun? Why shouldn't one take the sun as permanent and mine or myself, such as someone in prison with the sun through a window knowing everything is lost? Should we call for astrophysics knowledge? Should we tell ourselves the sun would eventually decompose in some distant future? Tell ourselves that there was a time when there was no sun and then originated?

Anicca is not about the story of things and prediction of their future. Seeing anicca of form is seeing how it's dependently originated. If I'm not mistaken it's seeing how nama-rupa depends on viññana and if it's dependent on something, which in turn also depends on something, it can't be something lasting and hence the self. We need to see dependent origination to understand anicca.

[Ceisiwr]

Should we tell ourselves the sun would eventually decompose in some distant future? Tell ourselves that there was a time when there was no sun and then originated?

Or perhaps atoms which will last an exceedingly long time, or electrons which are probably eternal.

[pegembara]

I would say that the mind of Arahant is impermanent as it will not arise again after his death (Parinibbana)
However, it is inconstant while he is alive.
The mind of non-arahant is inconstant always as it arises again in another form.

The mind is impermanent and constantly changes ie. empty, a magic trick. The awakened are not identified with the mind. They are said to be trackless.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life —

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Sabbe dhamma anatta - Pure emptiness with no remainder. Neither here nor there nor in between.

Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.

[SarathW]

I would say that the mind of Arahant is impermanent as it will not arise again after his death (Parinibbana)
However, it is inconstant while he is alive.
The mind of non-arahant is inconstant always as it arises again in another form.

The mind is impermanent and constantly changes ie. empty, a magic trick. The awakened are not identified with the mind. They are said to be trackless.

.

[/quote]
They have the five aggregates but not the clinging-aggregate.
So they still have an unclinging mind. Because it is unclinging it is not traceable.

[cappuccino]

Indeed, but whilst alive Buddhas and Arahants still have a body.

Body and soul

[pegembara]

I would say that the mind of Arahant is impermanent as it will not arise again after his death (Parinibbana)
However, it is inconstant while he is alive.
The mind of non-arahant is inconstant always as it arises again in another form.

The mind is impermanent and constantly changes ie. empty, a magic trick. The awakened are not identified with the mind. They are said to be trackless.

.

They have the five aggregates but not the clinging-aggregate.
So they still have an unclinging mind. Because it is unclinging it is not traceable.
[/quote]

There are simply just the five aggregates which also include the mind/consciousness. It is not that the awakened ones still have the five aggregates.

[SarathW]

There is no person called the awakened one.
There is a none clinging five aggregate,

[pegembara]

There is no person called the awakened one.
There is a none clinging five aggregate,

“The truth is still and has no voice; things
that speak are not the truth.”

The Way to True Happiness - Ajahn Dtun

viewtopic.php?p=704189#p704189

And yet speak you must.

[mikenz66]

There are simply just the five aggregates which also include the mind/consciousness. It is not that the awakened ones still have the five aggregates.

Yes, I've never understood the idea that there are two types of aggregates and an arahant has the "non-clinging" type. Of course the arahant doesn't cling, but I don't get how to define "clinging form"/"non clinging form", etc.

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should also properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/su ... ript=latin

Mike

[pegembara]

There are simply just the five aggregates which also include the mind/consciousness. It is not that the awakened ones still have the five aggregates.

Yes, I've never understood the idea that there are two types of aggregates and an arahant has the "non-clinging" type. Of course the arahant doesn't cling, but I don't get how to define "clinging form"/"non clinging form", etc.

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should also properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/su ... ript=latin

Mike

Aggregates are aggregates. What you do with or think of them is where the difference lies.