On Hindu and Mahayana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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samsarayoga
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On Hindu and Mahayana

Post by samsarayoga »

The main difference between Hindu and Mahayana, I think, is that in Hindu, Buddhism became undertone. While in Mahayana, Buddhism is dominant.

In Hindu, the Buddha is said to be 1 of the 10 avatars. While Trimurti itself is basically a personification representing 3 of the 4 kalpas in a mahakalpa. Hindus are basically worshiping the mahakalpa.

While in Mahayana, the local traditions are subordinate to Buddhism.

Some other interesting stuff about kalpas. The existence kalpa, which is basically Lord Vishnu (the Buddha according to Hindu), is divided into 20 antarakalpas. While an antarakalpa consists of 1000 regular kalpas.

So Lord Shiva is basically the fire destruction. For every 7th fire destruction there is a water destruction, and for every 7th water destruction there is a wind destruction.

I think I got it wrong somewhere so feel free to CMIIW. Namaste.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Coëmgenu
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Re: On Hindu and Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:13 amThe main difference between Hindu and Mahayana, I think, is that in Hindu, Buddhism became undertone. While in Mahayana, Buddhism is dominant.
There is another: Ātmatā & Anātmatā.

Before the resurgence/reconstitution of "Hinduism" that is sparked initially by figures like Ādiśaṅkarācārya and later by similar figures, Mahāyāna Buddhism had at one point more or less completely infiltrated the religion of the Upaniṣads and Purāṇas. An example of this in practice:
Āditya and Candra came from his eyes, Maheśvara came from his forehead, Brahmā came from his shoulders, Nārāyaṇa came from his heart, Devi Sarasvatī came from his canines, Vāyu came from his mouth, Dharaṇī came from his feet, and Varuṇa came from his stomach. When those deities had come from Avalokiteśvara’s body, that Bhagavat told the deity Maheśvara, "Maheśvara, in the kaliyuga, when beings have bad natures, you will be declared to be the primal deity who is the creator, the maker. All those beings will be excluded from the path to enlightenment. They will say to ordinary beings:

It is said: the sky is his liṅga,
The earth is his seat.
He is the foundation of all beings.
The liṅga is so called because they dissolve into it."

Noble son, those are the words I heard Tathāgata Vipaśyin say.
(Avalokiteśvaraguṇakāraṇḍavyūhasūtra)

In the above, Maheśvara & Nārāyaṇa are respectively the older medieval names of the Hindu deities generally known as Śiva & Viṣṇu. Material like the above would eventual fuel a Hindu backlash wherein Hinduism began to distance itself from the Buddhadharma for the sake of not disappearing inside of it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
samsarayoga
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:25 pm

Re: On Hindu and Mahayana

Post by samsarayoga »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:04 am There is another: Ātmatā & Anātmatā.

Before the resurgence/reconstitution of "Hinduism" that is sparked initially by figures like Ādiśaṅkarācārya and later by similar figures, Mahāyāna Buddhism had at one point more or less completely infiltrated the religion of the Upaniṣads and Purāṇas. An example of this in practice:
Āditya and Candra came from his eyes, Maheśvara came from his forehead, Brahmā came from his shoulders, Nārāyaṇa came from his heart, Devi Sarasvatī came from his canines, Vāyu came from his mouth, Dharaṇī came from his feet, and Varuṇa came from his stomach. When those deities had come from Avalokiteśvara’s body, that Bhagavat told the deity Maheśvara, "Maheśvara, in the kaliyuga, when beings have bad natures, you will be declared to be the primal deity who is the creator, the maker. All those beings will be excluded from the path to enlightenment. They will say to ordinary beings:

It is said: the sky is his liṅga,
The earth is his seat.
He is the foundation of all beings.
The liṅga is so called because they dissolve into it."

Noble son, those are the words I heard Tathāgata Vipaśyin say.
(Avalokiteśvaraguṇakāraṇḍavyūhasūtra)

In the above, Maheśvara & Nārāyaṇa are respectively the older medieval names of the Hindu deities generally known as Śiva & Viṣṇu. Material like the above would eventual fuel a Hindu backlash wherein Hinduism began to distance itself from the Buddhadharma for the sake of not disappearing inside of it.
The 1st jhana is destroyed through fire. The 2nd jhana destroyed by water. 3rd jhana through wind. If the 4th jhana is never destroyed, is it outside samsara then?
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Coëmgenu
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Re: On Hindu and Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

That the dhyāna heavens are destroyed by the mahābhūtas is a relic of the Iron Age belief that they are "physical locations" in "the heavens" (i.e. "the sky"). In early Buddhist cosmology, these physical heavens were located far above the flat earth, which is known as "Bhūmaṇḍala" (the earth-disc) in later literature. The Buddha does not invent or reveal this cosmology entirely, however, though he does reveal some details of it. Buddhism inherits this para-Vedic, not Vedic, cosmos from the beliefs of the śramaṇa communities of the time in India. It is not a Vedic cosmos, there are no cosmic elephants weighing down the earth, there is no great Anantaśeṣa nāga coiled around the roots of it like Níðhöggr around the roots of Yggdrasil. But there is a Sumeru, and Lord Indra has a palace upon it. Hence it is "para-Vedic," not "Vedic;" "para-Brahmanical," not "Brahmanical."

These physical locations are destroyed by physical substances, such as earth, water, fire, wind, etc. Physical substances cannot effect, let alone destroy, the formless heavens.

The heavens of the 4th dhyāna, the Vehapphala, the Bṛhatpāla, the Pure Abodes, etc., are not outside saṃsāra, because the beings within them are still mortal and still die. They enjoy long blissful lives, but most of them cannot produce merit. As such, when their fortuitous karma exhausts itself, they take birth in the lower heavens or in the kāmadhātu. For instance, according to the Sarvāstivādins, upon a raised dias in the Bṛhatpāla, there resides the Asaṃjñāsattvas. These beings are "unconscious" (asaṃjñaka). The streams of their minds are arrested by the asaṃjñaka dharma. According to the Pāli suttas, there is no asaṃjñaka dharma, and their only cognition is at death, when they fall from the Bṛhatpāla to the lower heavens. This is saṃsāra. Snakes and ladders. Transmigration. Wandering.

In short, because the beings who enjoy these heavens are subject to birth and death, none of them are Nirvāṇa.

That being said, the heavens themselves are depicted as more-or-less eternal. This contextualizes IMO how various dhyānins of other sects mistake the dhyānas for permanent liberation. They think they will reside eternally in the eternal loka. Dhyāna without right view is wrong samādhi, and leads to gains and losses, such as death followed by subsequent bhāva into the rūpadhātu, such as the discarding of five aggregates associated with the kāmadhātu and acquiring five aggregates associated with the rūpadhātu.

An eternal realm does seem to be in tension with impermanence, but the beings within it are impermanent, so the everlasting heavens of the fourth dhyāna are not truly eternal inasmuch as any being experiences them.

Also, when the Dharma has faded and when it has been a long time since a Buddha was born into the world, the Pure Abodes become all-but-empty. Brahmā Sahampati, a student of a past Buddha, descended into the kāmadhātu to beseech Gautama Buddha to teach, but it seems there were not a great many like him at the time of Gautama Buddhas attainment of Bodhi.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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