Of the 5 faculties, pañña is the one where discernment "intuition" determines slow or fast overall progress.
And we know from suttas like SN 46.3 that pañña corresponds to the samapajano of sati and sampajano, which is present in all four jhanas (most prominently in 3rd and 4th jhana, weak in first 2 due to presence of piti).
Asubha practice also doesn't have to be painful. For example, you could doing 3rd or 4th jhana, holding to the perception of a skeleton, body experiencing pleausure, cognizant of the nature of the body and death, but not emotionally revulsed by that.
The2nd wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:35 amIn whichever way the sotapanna(or sekha) practices, he will become an Arahant. Sometimes it will be a slow practice, which entails overall discomforts such as those which would accompany one who attends to the "asubha" aspect, and sometimes his practice entails overall comfortable abidings, such as those which would accompany one who attends to the "jhana" aspect.
Either way, there will come a point where he attains parinibbana.
frank k wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:07 pm
Of the 5 faculties, pañña is the one where discernment "intuition" determines slow or fast overall progress.
And we know from suttas like SN 46.3 that pañña corresponds to the samapajano of sati and sampajano, which is present in all four jhanas (most prominently in 3rd and 4th jhana, weak in first 2 due to presence of piti)
Thank you very much. Very helpful!!
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros. Sutta Nipāta 1.3- Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions. Dīgha Nikāya 17
The2nd wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:35 am
In whichever way the sotapanna(or sekha) practices, ...
It would be strange if theravada considers it to be possible that a sotapanna does painful practice.
Only strange if that "pain" (which is the chosen translation for dukkha in that specific sutta) means that the sotapanna Suffers.
However, as has been debated many times on this forum, "dukkha" has different meanings depending on the context, and in this context it refers to "discomfort" rather than emotional suffering.
The sotapanna is free from the possibility of suffering no matter what discomforts arise on account of the aggregates.
The2nd wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:35 am
In whichever way the sotapanna(or sekha) practices, ...
It would be strange if theravada considers it to be possible that a sotapanna does painful practice.
Only strange if that "pain" (which is the chosen translation for dukkha in that specific sutta) means that the sotapanna Suffers.
However, as has been debated many times on this forum, "dukkha" has different meanings depending on the context, and in this context it refers to "discomfort" rather than emotional suffering.
The sotapanna is free from the possibility of suffering no matter what discomforts arise on account of the aggregates.
"discomfort" nevertheless appears strange in the context of one who is said to have attained the noble path via the signless, wishless or void gate of liberation. But nevermind suttas entail many of such strangenesses.
SteRo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:35 pm
It would be strange if theravada considers it to be possible that a sotapanna does painful practice.
Only strange if that "pain" (which is the chosen translation for dukkha in that specific sutta) means that the sotapanna Suffers.
However, as has been debated many times on this forum, "dukkha" has different meanings depending on the context, and in this context it refers to "discomfort" rather than emotional suffering.
The sotapanna is free from the possibility of suffering no matter what discomforts arise on account of the aggregates.
"discomfort" nevertheless appears strange in the context of one who is said to have attained the noble path via the signless, wishless or void gate of liberation. But nevermind suttas entail many of such strangenesses.
The suttas are filled with many ideas which one would not expect, and ideas that one has never thought of before, and so indeed they will most likely appear strange to one who has not understood them, or whose idea's are opposing.
Only strange if that "pain" (which is the chosen translation for dukkha in that specific sutta) means that the sotapanna Suffers.
However, as has been debated many times on this forum, "dukkha" has different meanings depending on the context, and in this context it refers to "discomfort" rather than emotional suffering.
The sotapanna is free from the possibility of suffering no matter what discomforts arise on account of the aggregates.
"discomfort" nevertheless appears strange in the context of one who is said to have attained the noble path via the signless, wishless or void gate of liberation. But nevermind suttas entail many of such strangenesses.
The suttas are filled with many ideas which one would not expect, and ideas that one has never thought of before, and so indeed they will most likely appear strange to one who has not understood them, or whose idea's are opposing.
As to ideas:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
"intellect and ideas" of course includes "strangeness" and everything written in the suttas. And that again is "intellect and ideas". So since everything uttered is "intellect and ideas" on what grounds should one be opposed to this but not opposed to that? And what could be the result of "understanding" if not again "intellect and ideas"?
No discomfort at all.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:28 pm
...
I'm struggling to understand the point of this sutta. It smells like later addition.
What is the smell of later addition?
Is it the smell of beyond one's personal understandablity?
Im sorry if it sounded rude. I thought it was a later addition sutta due to the commentarial interpretation to support dry insight as canonical and the sutta being a bit confusing.
I don't trust the commentaries, so to me it's not improbable that they forged some suttas to support their opinions.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros. Sutta Nipāta 1.3- Khaggavisana Sutta
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions. Dīgha Nikāya 17
rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:28 pm
...
I'm struggling to understand the point of this sutta. It smells like later addition.
What is the smell of later addition?
Is it the smell of beyond one's personal understandablity?
Im sorry if it sounded rude. I thought it was a later addition sutta due to the commentarial interpretation to support dry insight as canonical and the sutta being a bit confusing.
I don't trust the commentaries, so to me it's not improbable that they forged some suttas to support their opinions.
Actually, I tend to "suspiciously" think so and so particular sutta entry might be the "later" addition (not necessarily in chronological manner, but in the form of later /or/ alien /or/ contextual concepts) whenever I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. And, the same is true for the para-canonical materials.
imo, commentaries are not to be necessarily trusted; rather they are to be understood why so, if inclined to tackle them. That solve quite a few things for me.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:28 pm
If in the painful practice jhāna isn't cited but the faculty of concentration is (which entails.... Hmmm... Jhāna??) what is the difference between it and the pleasant practice?
Much depends on the individual, his story and abilities. Someone drags a lot of pain from the past, someone does not. Someone figures out quickly how the suffering emerges, and someone slowly.
Besides, it stands to common sense that Jhāna makes the practice easier, as described in Majjhima Nikaya Atthakatha 4.67:
One who makes the concentration attainments a basis for vipassana, can be compared to one who crosses the great flood on a boat, and does not exhaust himself in the process. However the dry-insight practitioner can be compared to one who crosses the stream without a boat, and gets tired in the process.
Both approaches produce jhana. The painful approach is so called because of the asubha object of meditation... an unpleasant object to contemplate not 'painful' per se.
It's an approach for someone who has plenty of desire & hate (possibly most of us).
The second approach is sweeter but one would have to have a sweeter disposition from the off.
STED definitions 
Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
And, the same is true for the para-canonical materials.