Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User13866
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by User13866 »

Also this where householder teaches senior monks
Now at that time the householder Citta had arrived at Migapathaka on some business. He heard about what those senior mendicants were discussing.

So he went up to them, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to them, “Sirs, I heard that you were discussing whether the ‘fetter’ and the ‘things prone to being fettered’ differ in both meaning and phrasing, or whether they mean the same thing, and differ only in the phrasing.”

“That’s right, householder.”

“Sirs, the ‘fetter’ and the ‘things prone to being fettered’: these things differ in both meaning and phrasing.

Well then, sirs, I shall give you a simile. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said.

Suppose there was a black ox and a white ox yoked by a single harness or yoke. Would it be right to say that the black ox is the yoke of the white ox, or the white ox is the yoke of the black ox?”

“No, householder. The black ox is not the yoke of the white ox, nor is the white ox the yoke of the black ox. The yoke there is the single harness or yoke that they’re yoked by.”

“In the same way, the eye is not the fetter of sights, nor are sights the fetter of the eye. The fetter there is the desire and greed that arises from the pair of them.

The ear … nose … tongue … body … mind is not the fetter of thoughts, nor are thoughts the fetter of the mind. The fetter there is the desire and greed that arises from the pair of them.”

“You’re fortunate, householder, so very fortunate, to traverse the Buddha’s deep teachings with the eye of wisdom.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.1/en/suja ... ript=latin
And this
For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.' [23]
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by User13866 »

Also here Anathapindika deva's son says that mortals shouldn't delay and be purified right there, having previously asked for Dhamma to be taught to householders, imo surely he felt missed out on becoming an end-maker in the human state;
"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

"In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it."



Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he addressed the Blessed One with this verse:


This blessed Jeta's Grove,
home to the community of seers,
where there dwells the Dhamma King:
the source of rapture for me.

Action, clear-knowing, & mental qualities,[1]
virtue, the highest [way of] life:
through this are mortals purified,
not through clan or wealth.

Thus the wise,
seeing their own benefit,
investigating the Dhamma appropriately,
should purify themselves right there.

As for Sariputta:
any monk who has gone beyond,
at best can only equal him
in discernment, virtue, & calm.
That is what Anathapindika the deva's son said. The Teacher approved. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, [knowing,] "The Teacher has approved of me," bowed down to him, circled him three times, keeping him to his right, and then disappeared right there.
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Radix
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Radix »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:26 pm The novice seems to be suggesting that the Dhamma should be copyrighted, and not in the public domain of accessibility.
Absolutely. The reason for the Dhamma ending age is that Buddhists are not elitist enough.
Seriously.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Radix »

tharpa wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:57 pm
So, by omission, it seems you agree that there is no Vinaya prohibition against it, just a cultural taboo in certain locales.
No, it's that it goes against the spirit of the Dhamma. It's so fundamental that those who don't see it are completely unqualified.

It's similar to how one is "just supposed to know" that one needs to dress properly and take care of personal hygiene before going to work. In contrast, for those who don't understand that, no amount of explaining will do.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Bundokji »

I thought once the suttas were written, they became a public property in the sense that they can be comprehended by anyone who can read and understand the language.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by perkele »

User13866 wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:10 pm I think that householders not learning sutta is foolish.
There is a text (vinaya?) saying that if a householder knows a sutta unknown to the monks then those monks should visit & ask to have it taught to them.
I think you missed the point.
The contentious point discussed as example was about teaching Vinaya to laypeople, by a monk. Not what a layperson can do.

Who said they should not learn sutta as they have heard or read by themselves? It would be silly to assume that the Buddha expected laypeople to forget everything they'd learnt from him. Or even Vinaya, as far as having access, and from observation?
You seem to be responding to a strawman of your own making, same as some others, fighting shadows:
DNS wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:41 pm(common creativity).
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Radix
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Radix »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:24 am I thought once the suttas were written, they became a public property in the sense that they can be comprehended by anyone who can read and understand the language.
That's Protestant thinking.

The suttas weren't "public property" when they were first spoken, they were limited to the people who heard them (heard them in a very specific hierarchical, formal situation).
Once written down, they could be read only by a few select people, they weren't meant for just anyone.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by DNS »

Radix wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:56 pm The suttas weren't "public property" when they were first spoken, they were limited to the people who heard them (heard them in a very specific hierarchical, formal situation).
Once written down, they could be read only by a few select people, they weren't meant for just anyone.
Reference? Do you have a reference to that view from the Suttas, Vinaya, or Abhidhamma?
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by DNS »

Found this good post over at Sutta Central:
Snowbird
Jul '21
Big thanks to the mods who split this topic into its own thread.

I wanted to clarify that we have been talking about two very different things. One is whether there is a Vinaya rule against teaching the Vinaya to lay people. The other (as the title of the thread states) is if the Vinaya should be kept secret from the laity.

On the first, I want to point out that in the Pali Vinaya at least, there is no rule against teaching Vinaya to lay people. The rule that non-high ordained individuals (so including samaneras) should be outside of the sima for Patimokkha recitation has nothing to do with teaching them Vinaya. Monastics are required to confess offenses that they remember while the recitation is in progress, so it only makes sense that the sanghakamma should be private.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sh ... /21?page=2
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Radix »

DNS wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:04 pm Reference? Do you have a reference to that view from the Suttas, Vinaya, or Abhidhamma?
I just pointed out some facts.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by patta.1999 »

If it is meant that the dhamma should not be taught to lay people then I think it is not so.
The Buddha and the monks taught the lay people as well. Monastic comes from lay people.

A good example is Suppabuddha the leper who joined a gathering because he thought that it may be a food distribution but it turned out that the Buddha was teaching the dhamma. And it was not just a simple "introduction" kind of teaching but it was a deep detailed teaching.
"
...So, focusing on Suppabuddha the leper, the Buddha gave a step-by-step Dhamma talk. The Buddha gave a Dhamma talk on generosity, on virtue and on heaven. The Buddha explained the disadvantages of sense desires, the corruption of mind due to defilements, and the benefits of letting go of defilements. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper’s mind was ready, workable, free from hindrances, delighted and clear, he gave a Dhamma talk specific to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, cause of suffering, end of suffering and the path to end suffering
....
he[Suppabuddha] got up from his seat and went to the Blessed One. Having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side.
...
May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha for refuge, from this day on, for life.

UdānaUd 5.3 Suppabuddha Kuṭṭhi Sutta
The Leper Suppabuddha
User13866 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:43 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:23 am Can someone summarise this, please?
As i understand it, this novice thinks that monks running sites like suttacentral and their youtube are using Dhamma to get fame.

Also that uploading dhamma wherever is inappropriate, using translations made by Sujato is probably inappropriate too.

Nowadays perhaps only sangham.net is appropriate, properly given, maybe accesstoinsight and some others.

I am not sure about this forum, probably very inappropriate because it's Brahman's domain. Perhaps things like quoting sutta here is a downfall transgression for 'member of the heirs' without base.
On the other hand if the intention was to criticize suttacentral as mentioned above, then I fully agree. It looks like a shiny apple but it is rotten inside (you can see this clearly if you are part of their discussion board).
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by User13866 »

perkele wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:56 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:10 pm I think that householders not learning sutta is foolish.
There is a text (vinaya?) saying that if a householder knows a sutta unknown to the monks then those monks should visit & ask to have it taught to them.
I think you missed the point.
The contentious point discussed as example was about teaching Vinaya to laypeople, by a monk. Not what a layperson can do.

Who said they should not learn sutta as they have heard or read by themselves? It would be silly to assume that the Buddha expected laypeople to forget everything they'd learnt from him. Or even Vinaya, as far as having access, and from observation?
You seem to be responding to a strawman of your own making, same as some others, fighting shadows:
DNS wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:41 pm(common creativity).
He can say if it's not so but it's not the first time the novice has given me that impression.
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Re: Taking and putting the Dhamma into what ever common domain is a grave wrong-doing

Post by Johann »

As much honorable, most honorable, Bhante Thanissaro, compassionate and patiently offered his great ability to bring some right view into the darkness... but two major to compassionate approached had been food for foolish ideas, acknowledged not only remaining of past destructive ways of thinking, drove may not fallend down yet, to fall down, and gave food for those nevertheless downwardly heading to speed on with a even multiple larger crowd, the "Robin Hoods" take as super full for wrong view to be put into action:

1. Think like a thief (althought just latent, yet encouraging in the title, supported)
2. And the total foolish idea in regard of copy and digital world.

Sure, it's hard to not defend what one has taken part on, made his gains with, and gave favors. At least, once would see the miss-perception which gave much food for many to go astray (which might be painful, of course), it's possible that not all will be gone and possibilities to possible fix wrongs remain.

What's the benefit to grasp-hold on something gained, once seeing is hot and to purified even on oneside?

When "all are equal" ideas, as well as Dhamma before Vinaya, gain before way, arises, all what is left are killing field and poor fools getting aware that they had not only cut of one of their legs, but both: orphaned and wild, bond to the darkest factories of Mara.

One encouraging to wrong, approves wrong, gives justifications for wrong, for his belly, for his gain, not even for this he acts compassionate.

The Buddha had no intent to let corrupted ways live on and multiple turning on the decay and pain by it: out of compassion. Yet he's just the "creator god" of his Dhamma for his heirs, the Bhikkhu Sangha, not those without relation, not those outwardly and far.

And no, even if a Noble disciple, a real heir, one wouldn't act like an outsider or for their favor, knowing clear that this Sasana is one requiring lineage, Upanissāya, can never step a little further, once refuge, Nissaya, has gone lost.

So it's easy and difficult as well, to fast go for a fix of what can be fixed and there aren't many left free of that fault, if even.
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