Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:02 am
KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:53 am Incorrect I believe. I think you will find it is made with Ghee, not butter and is therefore not contentious at all.
The chathu (Pali, catu) in Chathu Madura means "four".

The four ingredients are ghee, unsalted butter, jaggary and honey. The instructions for making it can be seen Mahamevnawa YouTube channel.


KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:53 amPlease don't make accusations about peoples intentions or state of mind unless you know what they are/it is. Its not good for you actually.
One doesn't need to be a mind-reader or a Freudian psychologist to detect what Freud called the "narcissism of small differences". It's a phenomenon common to any group whose way of life is based upon a heavily legalistic code, like ultra-Orthodox Jews, Plymouth Brethren, Conservative Quakers and Theravada bhikkhus. In the last case it can readily be observed that those communities where the Vinaya is fairly strictly observed will often produce monks who are more given to criticizing the monks in similarly strict communities over small points of difference than they are to criticizing monasteries in which the monks are grossly lax about Vinaya. Hence "the narcissism of small differences." (I don't mean to imply, of course, that the monks in strict communities will all be like this, only that there'll usually be some).

:goodpost:

Apologies, I thought Chathu Madura was made from Ghee. Apologies If I am wrong I thought Chathu Madura was definitely allowable though and there are examples in the Suttas of Lord Buddha & Arahant Monks consuming it as sustenance after mid-day? Perhaps I am mistaken. I didn't realize it was a Mahamevnawa/Sri Lankan cultural thing? Can anyone else shed any more light on this?

It seems perhaps the Mahamevnawa guys need to up their game too then?

I think you are misreading my thinking/reasoning behind making these posts though.. perhaps I am like Elon Musk with Twitter playing 5D chess in my head trying to mend various Schisms in the Sangha, even before they occur? Who knows?

:anjali:

KeepCalm

p.s. Does anyone know where the Burmese Monastery is in Romford?
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Mumfie
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:53 am I thought Chathu Madura was definitely allowable though and there are examples in the Suttas of Lord Buddha & Arahant Monks consuming it as sustenance after mid-day? Perhaps I am mistaken.
No, you're right that the texts mention the "four sweet things" (catumadhura), which are sappi (ghee), navanīta (???), madhu (honey) and phāṇita (molasses).

The meaning of three of the four items is uncontroversial, but the meaning of navanīta is disputed. Depending on which monastery you go to you'll meet with all the following views:

1. Unsalted butter.
2. Any kind of butter.
3. Cheese.
4. Some kind of curd-like dairy product.
5. We haven't a clue what it is, so let's play it safe and eat none of the above during the vikāla.
KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:53 amIt seems perhaps the Mahamevnawa guys need to up their game too then?
Since by all accounts their monks are strictly observant in most matters, I wouldn't myself presume to make that sort of judgment.
KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:53 amI think you are misreading my thinking/reasoning behind making these posts though.. perhaps I am like Elon Musk with Twitter playing 5D chess in my head trying to mend various Schisms in the Sangha, even before they occur? Who knows?
If you're a layperson, then I don't think you're really in a position either to cause a schism in the sangha or to mend one.
Upāli, a nun does not split an Order even if she goes forward with a schism… a probationer … a novice … a woman novice … a lay-follower … a woman lay-follower does not split an Order even if she goes forward with a schism. Only a regular monk, Upāli, belonging to the same communion, staying within the same boundary, splits an Order.”

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd17/en/horner
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:30 pm
No, you're right that the texts mention the "four sweet things" (catumadhura), which are sappi (ghee), navanīta (???), madhu (honey) and phāṇita (molasses).

The meaning of three of the four items is uncontroversial, but the meaning of navanīta is disputed. Depending on which monastery you go to you'll meet with all the following views:

1. Unsalted butter.
2. Any kind of butter.
3. Cheese.
4. Some kind of curd-like dairy product.
5. We haven't a clue what it is, so let's play it safe and eat none of the above during the vikāla.
Thank you, very informative, thanks.
Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:30 pm
If you're a layperson, then I don't think you're really in a position either to cause a schism in the sangha or to mend one.
Upāli, a nun does not split an Order even if she goes forward with a schism… a probationer … a novice … a woman novice … a lay-follower … a woman lay-follower does not split an Order even if she goes forward with a schism. Only a regular monk, Upāli, belonging to the same communion, staying within the same boundary, splits an Order.”

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd17/en/horner
I disagree. I think lay people are possibly in the *strongest* position to mend a schism. For example they can pick sides easily, they can if they organize themselves, withhold alms/support until the Bhikkhus sort it out. See: https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/Mv/MvX.html Not saying they should do this in every case.. Just saying they can.. What can another Bhikkhu really do to another Bhikkhu other than talk about it?

Bhikkhunī's not so much, I guess as they shouldn't be getting too involved in Bhikkhus stuffs.. or Bhikhus in theres? -Isn't that in the vinaya too? - I'm not an expert on these matters.

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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:45 pmI'm not an expert on these matters.
You don't appear to understand what a schism in the sangha is. I sense from your posts that you're using the word to refer to any old dispute among monks, but it really isn't. In its Vinaya sense sanghabheda is an occurrence of such exceptional rarity that it's actually almost impossible for it to happen nowadays. If monks strongly disagree with each other about Dhamma or Vinaya then they just live apart in separate monasteries and don't bother to fraternize. They don't do the things that you need to do to create sanghabheda in the Vinaya sense.

For details see Thanissaro's account of the tenth sanghādisesa rule. It's the section that starts: "Should any bhikkhu agitate for a schism in a united Community, or should he persist in taking up..."

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0011.html
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:45 pm
KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:45 pmI'm not an expert on these matters.
You don't appear to understand what a schism in the sangha is. I sense from your posts that you're using the word to refer to any old dispute among monks, but it really isn't. In its Vinaya sense sanghabheda is an occurrence of such exceptional rarity that it's actually almost impossible for it to happen nowadays. If monks strongly disagree with each other about Dhamma or Vinaya then they just live apart in separate monasteries and don't bother to fraternize. They don't do the things that you need to do to create sanghabheda in the Vinaya sense.

For details see Thanissaro's account of the tenth sanghādisesa rule. It's the section that starts: "Should any bhikkhu agitate for a schism in a united Community, or should he persist in taking up..."

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0011.html
Yes in the academic sense perhpas you are correct, but in the practical sense perhaps it's so common an occurrence nowadays it would be impossible to recognize?
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:54 pm Yes in the academic sense perhpas you are correct, but in the practical sense perhaps it's so common an occurrence nowadays it would be impossible to recognize?
If a disagreement in the sangha doesn't fit the Vinaya definition of a sanghabheda, then it's not a sanghabheda either academically or practically.

If it were to happen there would be no difficulty in recognizing it. As it is, there've not been any sanghabhedas in hundreds of years, presumably because when monks have been at odds with each other, neither side would wish to incur the weighty kamma that comes from turning a dispute into a schism.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:28 pm If a disagreement in the sangha doesn't fit the Vinaya definition of a sanghabheda, then it's not a sanghabheda either academically or practically.

If it were to happen there would be no difficulty in recognizing it. As it is, there've not been any sanghabhedas in hundreds of years, presumably because when monks have been at odds with each other, neither side would wish to incur the weighty kamma that comes from turning a dispute into a schism.
Yes, so you say.

Why would there be no difficulty recognising it?

Prove it.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:58 pm Why would there be no difficulty recognising it?

Prove it.
I take it you haven't yet read the link I posted and so you still don't know what sanghabheda actually means.

"Why would there be no difficulty recognising it?"

Because for a sangha dispute to reach the point where two groups of monks are conducting separate Pāṭimokkha recitations, pavāranā ceremonies, etc., within the same sīmā is not the sort of event that could pass unnoticed and unremarked.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:50 pm
Because for a sangha dispute to reach the point where two groups of monks are conducting separate Pāṭimokkha recitations, pavāranā ceremonies, etc., within the same sīmā is not the sort of event that could pass unnoticed and unremarked.
Yes, Yes, thats the academic outline, the dictionary definition, that's the dogma.. but in practical terms... are you sure are you 100% certain it couldn't go unnoticed these days?

But OK looking at your framework definition, to give one example:

Bearing in mind Ven. Ajan Sumedho (I beleive) was Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero's preceptor, no?

Lets look at both organizations now.. Seperate Pāṭimokkha recitations, I'd say so.. check x
Separate pavāranā ceremonies .. Hmm seems that way..check x
Separate everything it seems to me.. (apart from territory actually in the UK).

If I was the head of either of those organizations I think I would be extremely, extremely worried about things. I wouldn't be saying "We are Sri Lankan, we are the best" or "We are Thai Forrest our vinaya is better" I'd be encouraging close association and sharing of ideas and ideal with both groups of Monastics.. in fact I would want them all to see each other as one and the same, they are brothers in Dhamma afterall.

It breaks my heart sometimes actually. Doesn't anyone else feel it? Both Groups seem to need each other so badly.. they are after all brothers.. The Amaravati Monks need the knowledge of Dhamma/Suttas and the language knowledge and, well just the right way of doing things ++ that the Mahamevnawa crew have. The Mahamevnawa Monks seem to need the discipline and pragmatism and worldly experience of the West ++ of the Amarvati crew..

I'd also throw Ven. Bhikkhu Pesala in there as well somehow as he is also one of my favourite people on the planet...

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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by mikenz66 »

KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am Bearing in mind Ven. Ajan Sumedho (I beleive) was Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero's preceptor, no?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribathg ... anda_Thero
Wikipedia wrote:Gnanananda became a monk at age 17 on 26 March 1979 under Dambagasare Sumedhankara Thero and Dikwelle Pannananda Thero at Seruwavila.
KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am Lets look at both organizations now.. Seperate Pāṭimokkha recitations, I'd say so.. check x
Separate pavāranā ceremonies .. Hmm seems that way..check x
Separate everything it seems to me.. (apart from territory actually in the UK).
They are involved in separate organisations.

It feels to me that you are seeing a problem where none really exists. These (and other) different strands evolved in different places, so have some differences in interpretation on some matters. The teachers I actually respect don't appear to waste time sniping at each other about some minor vinaya matters and sometimes actually have fruitful exchanges about more weighty matters. Whether their local vinaya interpretation approves of consuming some particular thing in the afternoon is of zero interest to me unless I'm staying in their monastery, in which case I would try not break the local convention. If I were to worry, I would worry about differences in significant areas of Dhamma interpretation and whether there was a supportive environment for my practice. Since such teachers as those you mention obviously have a lot more experience than I have, it would be ridiculous for me to be involved in a crusade to unify the interpretation of Dhamma.

I'm writing from the point of view of a lay practitioner. There are, of course, some more complex issues for someone who is ordained.

:heart:
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am Yes, Yes, thats the academic outline, the dictionary definition,
It's the meaning of "schism of the sangha" in the Vinaya Pitaka and therefore the Buddha's meaning and the Buddhist meaning. Given your expressed concern regarding correct Vinaya observance at the start of this thread, I'm surprised to see you treating it so dismissively.
KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am that's the dogma.. but in practical terms... are you sure are you 100% certain it couldn't go unnoticed these days?
Yes, absolutely sure. In the most unlikely event of half a dozen Mahamevnawa monks going to stay at Amaravati and announcing to Ajahn Sumedho: "Since you're afternoon cheese-eaters and we're afternoon butter-eaters, we believe you're following Vinaya incorrectly and we don't want to join in with your Patimokkha recital. We'll hold our own recital instead!" there's not a cat in hell's chance of it not being noticed.
KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am Bearing in mind Ven. Ajan Sumedho (I beleive) was Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero's preceptor, no?
No.
KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 amLets look at both organizations now.. Seperate Pāṭimokkha recitations, I'd say so.. check x
Separate pavāranā ceremonies .. Hmm seems that way..check x
You are overlooking the words that I put in bold type: WHEN IN THE SAME SĪMĀ. There's nothing schismatical about two communities in separate monasteries each holding their own recital. That's just normal monk practice.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by BKh »

KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am Bearing in mind Ven. Ajan Sumedho (I beleive) was Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero's preceptor, no?
No. He was not. You are operating from a lot of wrong information, so be careful.
KeepCalm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am Lets look at both organizations now.. Seperate Pāṭimokkha recitations, I'd say so.. check x
This is also 100% wrong. If a monk from the Amaravati Thai forest sangha goes to a Mahamevnawa monastery they are welcome to participate in the Patimokkha. The reverse is also true. Of course there might be exceptions. But generally neither group has ever been exclusive in the way you claim.

In any case, the requirement for a schism is that two groups of monks within a single sima refuse to do patimokkha together.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

BKh wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am No. He was not. You are operating from a lot of wrong information, so be careful.
Oh, apologies.. I'm not sure where I got that from or why I said that. I'm not sure even what it means to be another Bhikhus's preceptor. Another Bhante wrote (in an email to me) that Ajan Sumedo and Kiribathgoda Gnananda Thera 'Ordained Together' was the phrase he used and I misinterpreted that it seems. I know that (or At lease Ajan Vimalo from Amaravati said that) Ajan Vimalo organized or helped organise Kiribathgoda Gnanada Theras Ordiantion or Higher Ordination (I think higher, perhaps). Not that it is important, perhaps. You are right I should be more careful. Sorry about that.
BKh wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am This is also 100% wrong. If a monk from the Amaravati Thai forest sangha goes to a Mahamevnawa monastery they are welcome to participate in the Patimokkha. The reverse is also true. Of course there might be exceptions. But generally neither group has ever been exclusive in the way you claim.
I see, again I apologize profusely.
BKh wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:02 am In any case, the requirement for a schism is that two groups of monks within a single sima refuse to do patimokkha together.
I see, out of interest what is classed as the same sima? I thought it was geographic distance, like off the top of my head like so many yojanas like a 60 mile radius one group of Monks to another or something like this?

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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:20 pm I see, out of interest what is classed as the same sima? I thought it was geographic distance, like off the top of my head like so many yojanas like a 60 mile radius one group of Monks to another or something like this?
Depending on the context a sīmā is either:

1) the space in which any monks residing are reckoned to be of the same community. This is nearly always the perimeter of a monastery but occasionally larger geographical domains have been designated, e.g., the whole village and its environs.

(2) the smaller space within #1 that has been designated by the sangha as the location where Patimokkha recitals, ordinations, etc., will take place.
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Shall daunt his spirit;”
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

OK Thank you very much Mumfie (and everyone) for your responses.
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