can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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dawn of peace
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:39 am One not striving for stream, not having the Gems as refuge, of course doesn't need to go after abounding the nivaranas and akusala, good householder, is free to do even all misdeeds. Nobody can or do force anybody, yet the question was raised in Dhamma wheel in the virtue section of the path.
Not in Samsarawheel, right?
Lay stream winners do not have to abstinence from all sexual activities, although they will not commit sexual misconduct. even once returners still cannot really extinguish all sexual desires. one need to achieve non returner to extinguish all sexual desires. The Buddha did not require all lay people to achieve non returner in this life time.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:14 am
Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:39 am One not striving for stream, not having the Gems as refuge, of course doesn't need to go after abounding the nivaranas and akusala, good householder, is free to do even all misdeeds. Nobody can or do force anybody, yet the question was raised in Dhamma wheel in the virtue section of the path.
Not in Samsarawheel, right?
Lay stream winners do not have to abstinence from all sexual activities, although they will not commit sexual misconduct. even once returners still cannot really extinguish all sexual desires. one need to achieve non returner to extinguish all sexual desires. The Buddha did not require all lay people to achieve non returner in this life time.
Atma really does not like to disturb a re-ligion defending certain things for their objected ideals. May those after merits do so, as well as those after gains.

What does good householder think, isn't it amazing how faithful and devoted some of the Upasakas are?
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Radix
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

pegembara wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:49 am We are not actually talking about children but adult children of adults.
Big difference! I am assuming there are no children reading these posts.

Buddhism is not about blaming and shaming and being prudish.
Prudish?? What is the world coming to ...


One never stops to be a child of one's parents. If your father is a hundred years old and you are eighty, you are still his child.
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Radix
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

dawn of peace wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:52 amThe Buddha did not just do whatever his parent told him to do.

If The Buddha only did whatever his parent told him to do, he would not left his family in order to seek the path to liberation.
Even if your parents were drunkards advising you to drink, you should still 1. not drink, 2. if you did drink, feel shame about it.

Filial piety never ceases. It doesn't mean that you always obey your parents, but it does mean that you hold them in high regard simply for being your parents.


“I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two?

Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one’s mother & father.“

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN2_31.html
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Radix
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:14 amLay stream winners do not have to abstinence from all sexual activities, although they will not commit sexual misconduct. even once returners still cannot really extinguish all sexual desires. one need to achieve non returner to extinguish all sexual desires. The Buddha did not require all lay people to achieve non returner in this life time.
That's like saying that even though you see that your whole house is on fire, it's perfectly okay to try to extinguish the fire in only one room, and leave the rest burning.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:01 pm
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:14 amLay stream winners do not have to abstinence from all sexual activities, although they will not commit sexual misconduct. even once returners still cannot really extinguish all sexual desires. one need to achieve non returner to extinguish all sexual desires. The Buddha did not require all lay people to achieve non returner in this life time.
That's like saying that even though you see that your whole house is on fire, it's perfectly okay to try to extinguish the fire in only one room, and leave the rest burning.
So was the Buddha not of the opinion summarised by dawn of peace, or are you accusing the Buddha of an attitude comparable to a person who extinguishes a fire in one room but leaves the rest burning?
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:23 pmSo was the Buddha not of the opinion summarised by dawn of peace, or are you accusing the Buddha of an attitude comparable to a person who extinguishes a fire in one room but leaves the rest burning?
Pharisaism. Looking for loopholes. A legalistic intepretation of the teachings. An intepretation that allows and encourages one to indulge in one's defilements.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:50 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:23 pmSo was the Buddha not of the opinion summarised by dawn of peace, or are you accusing the Buddha of an attitude comparable to a person who extinguishes a fire in one room but leaves the rest burning?
Pharisaism. Looking for loopholes. A legalistic intepretation of the teachings. An intepretation that allows and encourages one to indulge in one's defilements.
Who is guilty of the pharisaism? The Buddha?
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

It's all actually easy to understand, once in, and common if a child of what ever householder-tradition:
Tissa Metteyya Sutta wrote:Tissa Metteyya Sutta: Tissa Metteyya

"Tell the danger, dear sir,
for one given over
to sexual intercourse.
Having heard your teaching,
we'll train in seclusion."

The Buddha:
"In one given over
to sexual intercourse,
the teaching's confused
and he practices wrongly:
this is ignoble
in him.
Whoever once went alone,
but then resorts
to sexual intercourse
— like a carriage out of control —
is called vile in the world,
a person run-of-the-mill.
His earlier honor & dignity:
lost.
Seeing this,
he should train himself
to abandon sexual intercourse.

Overcome by resolves,
he broods
like a miserable wretch.
Hearing the scorn of others,
he's chagrined.
He makes weapons,
attacked by the words of others.
This, for him, is a great entanglement.
He
sinks
into lies.

They thought him wise
when he committed himself
to the life alone,
but now that he's given
to sexual intercourse
they declare him a fool.

Seeing these drawbacks, the sage
here — before & after —
stays firm in the life alone;
doesn't resort to sexual intercourse;
would train himself
in seclusion —
this, for the noble ones, is
supreme.
He wouldn't, because of that,
think himself
better than others:
He's on the verge
of Unbinding.

People enmeshed
in sensual pleasures,
envy him: free,
a sage
leading his life
unconcerned for sensual pleasures
— one who's crossed over the flood."
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Johann wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 am
Tissa Metteyya Sutta wrote:Tissa Metteyya Sutta: Tissa Metteyya
Overcome by resolves,
he broods
like a miserable wretch.
Hearing the scorn of others,
he's chagrined.
He makes weapons,
attacked by the words of others.
This, for him, is a great entanglement.
He
sinks
into lies.
Thank you for the drink.
What does this part mean? I don't understand. Isn't it pleasant to abandon these desires? Why he broods?
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:52 pm
Radix wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:50 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:23 pmSo was the Buddha not of the opinion summarised by dawn of peace, or are you accusing the Buddha of an attitude comparable to a person who extinguishes a fire in one room but leaves the rest burning?
Pharisaism. Looking for loopholes. A legalistic intepretation of the teachings. An intepretation that allows and encourages one to indulge in one's defilements.
Who is guilty of the pharisaism? The Buddha?
Whom on earth could I possibly mean when I talk about the interpretation of the Buddha's teachings? Certainly not the Buddha.
So was the Buddha not of the opinion summarised by dawn of peace
How can anyone even suggest such a thing.
Have you not read the suttas? You think it makes perfect sense to go on and on about the dangers of the pursuit of sensual pelasures, but then turn around and say, "Meh, as long as you're not enlightened, you can do whatever shit you want, it's all fine" ??
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:58 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:52 pm
Radix wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:50 pm
Pharisaism. Looking for loopholes. A legalistic intepretation of the teachings. An intepretation that allows and encourages one to indulge in one's defilements.
Who is guilty of the pharisaism? The Buddha?
Whom on earth could I possibly mean when I talk about the interpretation of the Buddha's teachings? Certainly not the Buddha.
So was the Buddha not of the opinion summarised by dawn of peace
How can anyone even suggest such a thing.
Have you not read the suttas? You think it makes perfect sense to go on and on about the dangers of the pursuit of sensual pelasures, but then turn around and say, "Meh, as long as you're not enlightened, you can do whatever shit you want, it's all fine" ??
Sorry, I don't understand your point. I'll try to recap.

Dawn of peace summarised what s/he thinks the Buddha said about sex and the sotapanna. I'm no expert in all this stuff about different levels of attainment, but think what they said was, according to my limited understanding, reasonably accurate. I'm happy to be corrected on this, as it's how I learn.

You responded by saying that the attitude in d.o.p.'s summary was like putting out a fire in one room while the house blazes. I take that simile to be highlighting the foolishness of the attitude, so I asked whether you thought that d.o.p. had got it wrong and was misrepresenting the Buddha, or whether the Buddha had got it wrong.

You then responded by saying that something was pharisaism. So whose pharisaism? The Buddha's, d.o.p.'s, or mine? And why? Likewise the phrase
"Meh, as long as you're not enlightened, you can do whatever shit you want, it's all fine"
It's not a view I've ever subscribed to, nor have I ever seen it presented as Buddhavacana, nor does it seem to be derivable from d.o.p.'s post.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

Radix wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:08 pm While "men in liberal countries" treat women like sex toilets, as containers into which they excrete their semen. How nice!
Indeed. Women must serve liberal men as their sex toilets.
use the term "sexual toilet" to describe women in liberal countries is not right. a woman can give consent while a toilet cannot. the term "sexual toilet" would be more appropriate to describe women in conservative countries, who were sold into prostitution and were forced to have sex with men who pay for the sex. they don't even have choice, unlike the women who in liberal countries who have choice. married women in conservative countries are treated like baby-machine which for her husband to make babies.
Indeed. In "liberal countries", it is immoral for a woman to want to live with at least some dignity.
The Buddha never told his followers that they have to live in particular cultures, or not live in other cultures in other to be a moral person. no societies are morally perfect, unless cakkavatti ( the wheel turning emperor) ruled the world. The Buddha did not create a morally perfect society, but he did create a lot of morally perfect people. They are the stream winners.
You think it makes perfect sense to go on and on about the dangers of the pursuit of sensual pelasures, but then turn around and say, "Meh, as long as you're not enlightened, you can do whatever shit you want, it's all fine" ??
either indulgence in sensual pleasures or too much attached to the sila will deviate from the middle path. we should not be too hard or too relax in our interpretation. if our interpretation is too relax, it lead to indulgence in sensual pleasure. if our interpretation is too hard, it lead to extreme asceticism.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

Abstaining from sensual indulging (five senses) isn't extrem ascetic, good householder, but the middle way, the path, right resolve. Nobody harms anything or anybody when not delight in sensual joy. It's, possible unknown, freedom, sure requires much faith and effort (to stay on the skilful side) when ever defilements tell: "You'll die if you don't attack, don't try to make it yours."

When ever unskilful thoughts arise, using the opposition defeating strategies:

* replace with skillful thought
* reflect the effects
* reflect the backwards
* avoid contact
* bear it by biting together the teeth

Just a matter of time till the opposition dies off, and good to go after benefical hobbies, as much as possible doing merits: gaining and increasing proper joy. Rejoice with the Juwels and own goodness which is seldom to be found in the world.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Alex123 »

Radix wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:01 pm
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:14 amLay stream winners do not have to abstinence from all sexual activities, although they will not commit sexual misconduct. even once returners still cannot really extinguish all sexual desires. one need to achieve non returner to extinguish all sexual desires. The Buddha did not require all lay people to achieve non returner in this life time.
That's like saying that even though you see that your whole house is on fire, it's perfectly okay to try to extinguish the fire in only one room, and leave the rest burning.
No it is not ok. However, you can't always extinguish everything at once and sotapanna isn't an Arhat (don't Arahatisize the Sotapanna). It is gradual extinguishment. Lust for procreation is one of the strongest instincts, so it is hard to TOTALLY eliminate it all at once and in the beginning of the path. Additionally, if one is married and expected to do it, that might be one of the reasons why it still remains - you do it because you (almost) have to.

But the best option is to eliminate it ASAP, become an Anagami and then become an Arhat ASAP. Just be realistic and wise about how you proceed.

IMHO.
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