Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:24 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:13 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:03 pm

I can't find it. I've just gone through the application process, and I can't see a mention.



So it's not extortion, then, is it? Even if you think that snot is your "property", they've never acquired it from you, or from me. Compare that to real Mafia-style extortion, which makes you an offer you can't refuse. If you can politely decline Al Capone's offer to protect your business, he's not an extortionist but a private contractor.
The point is you cannot refuse without sacrificing the dhamma.
No, you can access the Dhamma elsewhere. Unless, of course, you think that Vipassana centres are the sole repositories of the Dhamma. Which would mean that the Dhamma died out until about 1970, when it mysteriously regenerated again.

It’s not as severe as the mafia example you offered but my point is the dhamma must be offered for free for ALL who are ready to receive
If that's so, then you are clearly not ready to receive. Some obstructive kamma, perhaps.
I can only speak for my own experience.
I did not find dhamma at the theravada monastic centre.
I found it at the Vipassana centre. I never claim or judge other centres or monastic traditions. In my case the monastics lacked the proper accommodations to teach dhamma to students this was confirmed by the Abbott. We often had conversations on how to hold a more successful retreat. We were even going to do camping in tents in rear of monestary but space and washing accommodations were lacking and we never were able to make it happen.
They had some wonderful monks come to teach but continuity of practice was an issue.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:26 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:13 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:49 am

Travel to a centre is not dhamma, neither is ordering something from Amazon.
Nor is sitting in a big sex-segregated hall listening to tapes of Goenkaji, and not being allowed to talk. The Dhamma might well be free, but your snot-sample pays for the delivery mode. I can't think of anywhere it would be cheaper.
Dhamma MUST be offered for free to ALL ready to receive. If this condition is not met then it is not dhamma. This is the pristine purity of Dhamma that I was taught.
Must it? Obviously, then, you are not ready to receive.
Over the 10 days one is guided through sila, samadhi and the arising of panna can occur. This MUST be offered at no cost to be pure dhamma. This is the teachings of this tradition at least from Goenka and from what he says Sayagi U bha Khin also.
Like I mentioned previously I have already received the pure dhamma and through my service within this tradition hopefully helped many others to also.
From Goenkas mouth the dhamma must be at no cost:
How much does the course cost?

Each student who attends a Vipassana course is given this gift by a previous student. There is no charge for either the teaching, or for room and board. All Vipassana courses worldwide are run on a strictly voluntary donation basis. At the end of your course, if you have benefited from the experience, you are welcome to donate for the coming course, according to your volition and your means.
So if you are not receiving it free, then you are in the same position as most of humanity. It's looking like an issue to do with your kamma to me..
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Mumfie
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Mumfie »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:52 am I thought it a foolish video.
There is no evidence to support gatherings of humans an unhealthy activity.
I think you're missing the point. It's irrelevant whether the Koreans are right or wrong in their assumptions. What matters is that they arrive at the same practical conclusion as you.

To sum up the three positions:

1. Mainstream Canadian Goenkaists

• Coughs and sneezes spread diseases.
• The avoidable spreading of diseases is an evil not to be countenanced.
• Therefore those who cough and sneeze must quarantine themselves.

2. South Koreans

• Coughs and sneezes spread diseases.
• The avoidable spreading of diseases is a lesser evil than certain other things, e.g., being considered not diligent by one's peers.
• Therefore those who cough and sneeze need not quarantine themselves.

3. Pea and his Righteous Remnant

• Coughs and sneezes DO NOT spread diseases. Diseases are in fact caused by the sankharas that arise when one sits on a cushion (as I quoted in the OP).
• Therefore those who cough and sneeze need not quarantine themselves.

Clearly there's no chance of any agreement between 1 and 3, but there's no reason why 2 and 3 shouldn't co-exist happily, even though each believes the other is starting from a mistaken premise.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Mumfie wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:19 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:52 am I thought it a foolish video.
There is no evidence to support gatherings of humans an unhealthy activity.
I think you're missing the point. It's irrelevant whether the Koreans are right or wrong in their assumptions. What matters is that they arrive at the same practical conclusion as you.

To sum up the three positions:

1. Mainstream Canadian Goenkaists

• Coughs and sneezes spread diseases.
• The avoidable spreading of diseases is an evil not to be countenanced.
• Therefore those who cough and sneeze must quarantine themselves.

2. South Koreans

• Coughs and sneezes spread diseases.
• The avoidable spreading of diseases is a lesser evil than certain other things, e.g., being considered not diligent by one's peers.
• Therefore those who cough and sneeze need not quarantine themselves.

3. Pea and his Righteous Remnant

• Coughs and sneezes DO NOT spread diseases. Diseases are in fact caused by the sankharas that arise when one sits on a cushion (as I quoted in the OP).
• Therefore those who cough and sneeze need not quarantine themselves.

Clearly there's no chance of any agreement between 1 and 3, but there's no reason why 2 and 3 shouldn't co-exist happily, even though each believes the other is starting from a mistaken premise.
Look man.... if the Buddha had the eye to see the future and knew the body and mind so well why arnt there any suttas on masking and quarantining like these political health oligarchs preach and mandate?
You would think he would have requisitioned an orange rag for monastics to cover their breathing with.
This is merely fear based paranoia.
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Radix
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:26 pm Over the 10 days one is guided through sila, samadhi and the arising of panna can occur. This MUST be offered at no cost to be pure dhamma. This is the teachings of this tradition at least from Goenka and from what he says Sayagi U bha Khin also.
Like I mentioned previously I have already received the pure dhamma and through my service within this tradition hopefully helped many others to also.
From Goenkas mouth the dhamma must be at no cost:
How much does the course cost?

Each student who attends a Vipassana course is given this gift by a previous student. There is no charge for either the teaching, or for room and board. All Vipassana courses worldwide are run on a strictly voluntary donation basis. At the end of your course, if you have benefited from the experience, you are welcome to donate for the coming course, according to your volition and your means.
Contact with the Dhamma is a privilege, not a right.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Radix wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:44 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:26 pm Over the 10 days one is guided through sila, samadhi and the arising of panna can occur. This MUST be offered at no cost to be pure dhamma. This is the teachings of this tradition at least from Goenka and from what he says Sayagi U bha Khin also.
Like I mentioned previously I have already received the pure dhamma and through my service within this tradition hopefully helped many others to also.
From Goenkas mouth the dhamma must be at no cost:
How much does the course cost?

Each student who attends a Vipassana course is given this gift by a previous student. There is no charge for either the teaching, or for room and board. All Vipassana courses worldwide are run on a strictly voluntary donation basis. At the end of your course, if you have benefited from the experience, you are welcome to donate for the coming course, according to your volition and your means.
Contact with the Dhamma is a privilege, not a right.
Certainly but the dhamma MUST be offered at no cost.
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Mumfie
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Mumfie »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:46 pmLook man.... if the Buddha had the eye to see the future and knew the body and mind so well why arnt there any suttas on masking and quarantining like these political health oligarchs preach and mandate?
Your reply doesn't address anything at all that I had to say in my last post. Still, to answer your question...

The medical advice in the Buddha's teaching is very minimal and rudimentary, and mostly found in the Vinaya rather than the Suttas. This shouldn't surprise us, for the Buddha wasn't called the "Supreme Physician" (sallakatto anuttaro) because he had great cures for chilblains or lumbago or the common cold.

Rather:
"Bhikkhus, physicians prescribe a purgative for eliminating ailments originating from bile, phlegm, and wind. There is this purgative, bhikkhus; that I do not deny. Yet this purgative sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails.

"But I will teach, bhikkhus, a noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails. In dependence on this purgative, beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to old age are freed from old age; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish.”
(Tikicchakasutta, AN10.108)
Or to quote your own teacher:
The Buddha – the Noble Physician

"Every person has the illness of mental defilements. Each person is afflicted by the illness of ignorantly generating defilements. When one experiences a pleasant sensation, however slight, one develops craving: I want more of it, I want more of it. When one experiences an unpleasant sensation, however slight, one develops aversion: I don't want this, I don't want this. One generates craving for the pleasant and aversion for the unpleasant and loses the balance of the mind, loses equanimity, loses peace of mind and loses happiness. This is the illness."

https://www.vridhamma.org/discourses/bu ... -physician
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:46 pmYou would think he would have requisitioned an orange rag for monastics to cover their breathing with. This is merely fear based paranoia.
The Buddha actually went further than that, by completely prohibiting the ordination of men and women with certain infectious diseases until they had been cured of them. Since one of the specified diseases was leprosy, for which there wasn't any cure until the mid-20th century, the ruling in effect meant that lepers were banned for life. Compared with the rigour of this ruling, the strictures adopted by the Canadian Goenkaists seem pretty soft to me.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Mumfie wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:56 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:46 pmLook man.... if the Buddha had the eye to see the future and knew the body and mind so well why arnt there any suttas on masking and quarantining like these political health oligarchs preach and mandate?
Your reply doesn't address anything at all that I had to say in my last post. Still, to answer your question...

The medical advice in the Buddha's teaching is very minimal and rudimentary, and mostly found in the Vinaya rather than the Suttas. This shouldn't surprise us, for the Buddha wasn't called the "Supreme Physician" (sallakatto anuttaro) because he had great cures for chilblains or lumbago or the common cold.

Rather:
"Bhikkhus, physicians prescribe a purgative for eliminating ailments originating from bile, phlegm, and wind. There is this purgative, bhikkhus; that I do not deny. Yet this purgative sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails.

"But I will teach, bhikkhus, a noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails. In dependence on this purgative, beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to old age are freed from old age; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish.”
(Tikicchakasutta, AN10.108)
Or to quote your own teacher:
The Buddha – the Noble Physician

"Every person has the illness of mental defilements. Each person is afflicted by the illness of ignorantly generating defilements. When one experiences a pleasant sensation, however slight, one develops craving: I want more of it, I want more of it. When one experiences an unpleasant sensation, however slight, one develops aversion: I don't want this, I don't want this. One generates craving for the pleasant and aversion for the unpleasant and loses the balance of the mind, loses equanimity, loses peace of mind and loses happiness. This is the illness."

https://www.vridhamma.org/discourses/bu ... -physician
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:46 pmYou would think he would have requisitioned an orange rag for monastics to cover their breathing with. This is merely fear based paranoia.
The Buddha actually went further than that, by completely prohibiting the ordination of men and women with certain infectious diseases until they had been cured of them. Since one of the specified diseases was leprosy, for which there wasn't any cure until the mid-20th century, the ruling in effect meant that lepers were banned for life. Compared with the rigour of this ruling, the strictures adopted by the Canadian Goenkaists seem pretty soft to me.
Look Mumfie,
I’m healthy and have been my entire life. Nothing has changed with me with regards to this aspect. I also never wear the mask, never take vaccines, and have no need for tests. Yet I’m disqualified from taking part in a community that I’ve been a vibrant part of for over a decade.
Something is going on within this organization and it is rotten. There is zero need for any of this health fear driven paranoia. Why are meditators so afraid......? This seems political.
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Mumfie
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Mumfie »

thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 am Look Mumfie,
I’m healthy and have been my entire life.
I didn't suggest otherwise.

Nevertheless, there's no denying your commitment to very non-mainstream and unscientific views on certain matters of personal hygiene. For example:
thepea wrote: As a Vipassana student sitting courses we often had the case where your cushion neighbour would come down with illness and begin to sneeze, cough or sniffle uncontrollably beside you. We were told this is sankhara arising and to bring your awareness to your breath or bodily sensation as this was where the work was to be done. If you did this then the individual and the entire room would disappear and you would absorb into jhana like concentration.
While it seems the Québécois Goenkaists have now embraced the mainstream view:
thepea wrote:Today I just saw at Quebec centre that as on January 2023 if you come down with a cold or flu symptoms on course you will be asked to leave.

My question is, is this safe for the meditator?
And so if you're going to insist that your view on this matter should prevail (i.e., that sneezing, coughing or sniffling meditators should not be requested to leave a course), then you should hardly be surprised if the Québécois Goenkaists don't want you around.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 amSomething is going on within this organization and it is rotten.
Well, maybe. Though personally if I had to choose between a Goenka retreat run on Québécois standards of hygiene and one run on thepea's standards, I believe I'd feel a lot safer with the former.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Mumfie wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:51 am
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 am Look Mumfie,
I’m healthy and have been my entire life.
I didn't suggest otherwise.

Nevertheless, there's no denying your commitment to very non-mainstream and unscientific views on certain matters of personal hygiene. For example:
thepea wrote: As a Vipassana student sitting courses we often had the case where your cushion neighbour would come down with illness and begin to sneeze, cough or sniffle uncontrollably beside you. We were told this is sankhara arising and to bring your awareness to your breath or bodily sensation as this was where the work was to be done. If you did this then the individual and the entire room would disappear and you would absorb into jhana like concentration.
While it seems the Québécois Goenkaists have now embraced the mainstream view:
thepea wrote:Today I just saw at Quebec centre that as on January 2023 if you come down with a cold or flu symptoms on course you will be asked to leave.

My question is, is this safe for the meditator?
And so if you're going to insist that your view on this matter should prevail (i.e., that sneezing, coughing or sniffling meditators should not be requested to leave a course), then you should hardly be surprised if the Québécois Goenkaists don't want you around.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 amSomething is going on within this organization and it is rotten.
Well, maybe. Though personally if I had to choose between a Goenka retreat run on Québécois standards of hygiene and one run on thepea's standards, I believe I'd feel a lot safer with the former.
My point is this is what Goenka taught.
He taught that sneezes and coughs and burps and farts were simply normal bodily function and can be intensified by the arising of sankharas. Fellow meditators were to focus on their own breathing and jhana.
And under no circumstance should a meditator be encouraged to leave a course fir these reasons but rather all efforts should be made to accommodate a student so the surgery can be completed. It was taught that it is very dangerous for students to leave in middle of a course as a great deal of confusion for lifetimes can occur.

Now...... since Goenka passed away, they are completely changing this sage advice. Goenka never passed the torch to anyone. He died and the only way to do his teachings is to be through the recordings.
It seems he knew they would destroy his purity of buddhas teachings through political sabotage.
[james]
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by [james] »

thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm He taught that sneezes and coughs and burps and farts were simply normal bodily function and can be intensified by the arising of sankharas. Fellow meditators were to focus on their own breathing and jhana.
And under no circumstance should a meditator be encouraged to leave a course fir these reasons but rather all efforts should be made to accommodate a student so the surgery can be completed.
Yes that’s how it was. COVID and the ensuing panic and social manipulation changed all that. The propagation of Dhamma must adapt to and be carried out in this reality.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm It was taught that it is very dangerous for students to leave in middle of a course as a great deal of confusion for lifetimes can occur.
I always found this hard to swallow and considered it akin to intimidation.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm Now...... since Goenka passed away, they are completely changing this sage advice.
No, they are adapting.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pmGoenka never passed the torch to anyone. He died and the only way to do his teachings is to be through the recordings.
It seems he knew they would destroy his purity of buddhas teachings through political sabotage.
His teachings are doomed because he didn’t acknowledge successors. He was himself a student and successor and yet …
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Radix
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:16 pmCertainly but the dhamma MUST be offered at no cost.
Well, the Dhamma might be offered for free, but there are inevitable costs that come with printing it on paper or "offering" it to the human body.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 am a community that I’ve been a vibrant part of for over a decade.
But are these feelings mutual?
How can you be sure?

There is zero need for any of this health fear driven paranoia.

Why are meditators so afraid......?
Possibly because they're not enlightened yet.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Radix wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:16 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:16 pmCertainly but the dhamma MUST be offered at no cost.
Well, the Dhamma might be offered for free, but there are inevitable costs that come with printing it on paper or "offering" it to the human body.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:06 am a community that I’ve been a vibrant part of for over a decade.
But are these feelings mutual?
How can you be sure?

There is zero need for any of this health fear driven paranoia.

Why are meditators so afraid......?
Possibly because they're not enlightened yet.
The dhamma MUST be offered for free. It cannot exclude anyone. If it does it ceases to be dhamma.
Yes... accommodation and food and literature cost money but this must be given as Dana. It cannot be forced.

Right up till Covid I was part of this community, I had been offered a full time position at the centre as lead maintenance but I could not accept this. There was. O issues as far as I could tell with anyone. Only when I began questioning the direction the centre was going with political Covid did I get any backlash from staff. They refused to discuss or answer my question. Instead they chose to stop communication with me completely.

Which is most likely why Goenka did not pass the torch, and why this organization is not teaching dhamma anymore. Now they are the Vipassana religion.
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

[james] wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:45 pm
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm He taught that sneezes and coughs and burps and farts were simply normal bodily function and can be intensified by the arising of sankharas. Fellow meditators were to focus on their own breathing and jhana.
And under no circumstance should a meditator be encouraged to leave a course fir these reasons but rather all efforts should be made to accommodate a student so the surgery can be completed.
Yes that’s how it was. COVID and the ensuing panic and social manipulation changed all that. The propagation of Dhamma must adapt to and be carried out in this reality.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm It was taught that it is very dangerous for students to leave in middle of a course as a great deal of confusion for lifetimes can occur.
I always found this hard to swallow and considered it akin to intimidation.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pm Now...... since Goenka passed away, they are completely changing this sage advice.
No, they are adapting.
thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:04 pmGoenka never passed the torch to anyone. He died and the only way to do his teachings is to be through the recordings.
It seems he knew they would destroy his purity of buddhas teachings through political sabotage.
His teachings are doomed because he didn’t acknowledge successors. He was himself a student and successor and yet …
You do not adapt the purity of the teaching for politics.
You preserve the teaching in times of crisis.
Perhaps the organization should have closed down centres that were carrying excess debt?

His organization is done as far as I’m concerned, they have morphed into a leftist religion.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:24 pm His organization is done as far as I’m concerned, they have morphed into a leftist religion.
So is this your final word on the matter?

We live in hope... :smile:
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