Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dhammapardon
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Dhammapardon »

I read this for the first time today and reminded me of this thread. Maybe someone will find it of benefit.
SN35.204
"Suppose, monk, a man had never seen a 'what's it' tree. So he went to someone who had seen one,[6] and said: 'Tell me, good sir, what does a "what's it" tree look like?' The other man replied: 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is sort of blackish, like a burnt stump.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is sort of reddish, like a lump of meat.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is stripped of its bark, with burst pods, rather like an acacia.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree has very thick leaves. It gives close shade like a banyan.' So for a while he sees the 'what's it' tree as that man sees it.

"In the same way, monk, according to the way the vision of these wise monks[7] has become purified, so they explain it, each according to his disposition.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Sam Vara
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:16 pm I read this for the first time today and reminded me of this thread. Maybe someone will find it of benefit.
SN35.204
"Suppose, monk, a man had never seen a 'what's it' tree. So he went to someone who had seen one,[6] and said: 'Tell me, good sir, what does a "what's it" tree look like?' The other man replied: 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is sort of blackish, like a burnt stump.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is sort of reddish, like a lump of meat.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is stripped of its bark, with burst pods, rather like an acacia.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree has very thick leaves. It gives close shade like a banyan.' So for a while he sees the 'what's it' tree as that man sees it.

"In the same way, monk, according to the way the vision of these wise monks[7] has become purified, so they explain it, each according to his disposition.
:goodpost: That's a good point. People will conceive of the Christian God in different ways according to their previously formulated conceptions and dispositions. And we don't know how people whose vision has become relatively more purified would see things, which perhaps accounts for our incomprehension when they talk about God.

And there are many Christians, for example, who claim that God is necessarily beyond all conceptions. Your ideas can be further from or closer to what God actually is, but if you have any sort of conception, there is still some way to go.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by knotting »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:33 pmAnd there are many Christians, for example, who claim that God is necessarily beyond all conceptions.
The obvious irony is that 'beyond all conceptions' is another concept.

Of course, most Christians (and theists generally) only invoke the concept of 'beyond all conceptions' when their more mundane conceptions of God are challenged. In the day-to-day life of most Christians, it is likely that God functions as the adult version of an imaginary friend - certainly not 'beyond all conception'.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:16 pm I read this for the first time today and reminded me of this thread. Maybe someone will find it of benefit.
SN35.204
"Suppose, monk, a man had never seen a 'what's it' tree. So he went to someone who had seen one,[6] and said: 'Tell me, good sir, what does a "what's it" tree look like?' The other man replied: 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is sort of blackish, like a burnt stump.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is sort of reddish, like a lump of meat.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree is stripped of its bark, with burst pods, rather like an acacia.' But that man was not long satisfied with this answer, so he went to another man... 'Well now, a "what's it" tree has very thick leaves. It gives close shade like a banyan.' So for a while he sees the 'what's it' tree as that man sees it.

"In the same way, monk, according to the way the vision of these wise monks[7] has become purified, so they explain it, each according to his disposition.
:goodpost:
This tree is called the flame of the forest or Butea frondosa.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

knotting wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:56 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:33 pmAnd there are many Christians, for example, who claim that God is necessarily beyond all conceptions.
The obvious irony is that 'beyond all conceptions' is another concept.
Yes, but it's doing a different sort of task in discourse from other concepts; it's marking out a place beyond which concepts cease to be useful. "If you have concepts, then you're not getting it!"
Of course, most Christians (and theists generally) only invoke the concept of 'beyond all conceptions' when their more mundane conceptions of God are challenged. In the day-to-day life of most Christians, it is likely that God functions as the adult version of an imaginary friend - certainly not 'beyond all conception'.
You're probably right. Having known some very astute theologians, though (and also being married to one) I'm happy to report that's not the whole story.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by knotting »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:18 pmit's marking out a place beyond which concepts cease to be useful. "If you have concepts, then you're not getting it!"
The second anyone says, 'this place is beyond concepts', they are likely already lost in concepts about such a concept-less 'place'.

I'm no theologian, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here. All I can say is I feel exhausted by the endless, myriad concepts that humanity has churned out. The Dhamma seems to be the only system of concepts that actually resolves this problem.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

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Earth Cataclysms And The Hopi Kachinas, Saviours From Space
Comparing Kachinas and Wuyas with Christian entities, we might say … They are all Angels‚ but the highest in rank you would call Archangels. The divinities are positioned above the Kachinas, and above all there is the Creator,” White Bear said.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

knotting wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:18 pmit's marking out a place beyond which concepts cease to be useful. "If you have concepts, then you're not getting it!"
The second anyone says, 'this place is beyond concepts', they are likely already lost in concepts about such a concept-less 'place'.

I'm no theologian, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here. All I can say is I feel exhausted by the endless, myriad concepts that humanity has churned out. The Dhamma seems to be the only system of concepts that actually resolves this problem.
Overall, I tend to agree, although there are some parallels between apophasis in Theism and in Buddhism that are worth thinking about.
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Post by sunnat »

The catholic pope has been seen (Luther) as satan which is sometimes equated with mara. With a pope as gods rep on earth and a multitude of ideas and opinions about what god is there is a plethora of answers. Perhaps then a god as representing the definer is best understood as ego. This god thing written about seems to always be self centred and can be vengeful, pitting one against another and demanding of obeisance, while in better times a benevolent yet I-making thing.
Last edited by sunnat on Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by knotting »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:51 pmOverall, I tend to agree, although there are some parallels between apophasis in Theism and in Buddhism that are worth thinking about.
Several years ago, I dipped my toes into Christian mysticism: 'The Cloud of Unknowing', Meister Eckhart, and such. It's possible that the Christian apophatic approach (along with Advaita Vedanta) are like the 'intermediate rafts' which can take one to the 'final raft' of the Dhamma.

Christian apophasis feels more like monism than theism, anyways.
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Dhammapardon »

knotting wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:12 am Several years ago, I dipped my toes into Christian mysticism: 'The Cloud of Unknowing', Meister Eckhart, and such. It's possible that the Christian apophatic approach (along with Advaita Vedanta) are like the 'intermediate rafts' which can take one to the 'final raft' of the Dhamma.
Not too long ago I was introduced to Christian mysticism through these videos. It was quite exhilarating to learn some of the similarities and connections to other paths when carefully examined. Some very enjoyable videos here from my point of view.



They have great ambiance :tongue:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Sam Vara »

knotting wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:12 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:51 pmOverall, I tend to agree, although there are some parallels between apophasis in Theism and in Buddhism that are worth thinking about.
Several years ago, I dipped my toes into Christian mysticism: 'The Cloud of Unknowing', Meister Eckhart, and such. It's possible that the Christian apophatic approach (along with Advaita Vedanta) are like the 'intermediate rafts' which can take one to the 'final raft' of the Dhamma.
Yes, entirely possible, and there is of course the counterpart position of some Christians that the Dhamma has a similar role in leading sincere seekers to God. :thinking:
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Post by Kusala »

sunnat wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:11 am The catholic pope has been seen (Luther) as satan which is sometimes equated with mara. With a pope as gods rep on earth and a multitude of ideas and opinions about what god is there is a plethora of answers. Perhaps then a god as representing the definer is best understood as ego. This god thing written about seems to always be self centred and can be vengeful, pitting one against another and demanding of obeisance, while in better times a benevolent yet I-making thing.
Thanissaro's student who was raised in the Catholic church...@ 5:43 - 7:18

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
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Re: Who/what do you think the Christian god is?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The God of Abraham is "jealous" and "wrathful." He cannot be a Brahmā. He must be an older of lower kāmadhātu deity, such as an asura.

Honestly he probably just doesn't exist. Gods powerful enough to be omniscient concerning the triple realm are not jealous and wrathful. Even Māra isn't "wrathful." He's haughty and egotistical and wrong, but arguably not "wrathful" or "jealous."

He isn't jealous of the Buddha or Saṃgha, because he thinks they are all wrong and that the Dhamma is a bunch of lies.
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Post by sunnat »

It may seem cruel to many to think of their dearly clung to view of god as a-Dhammic but that is only because essentially the mind created god is a creation of a self.

Abandoning the underlying tendencies to I-make

and

abandoning the underlying tendencies to cherish pleasant thoughts and abandoning the underlying tendencies to reject unpleasant thoughts and abandoning the underlying tendencies to ignore subtle thoughts

the disenchanted mind becomes dispassionate and having been liberated, god can be seen for what it is

So, in order to facilitate the cultivation of the path it may help to consider god without sentiment. On an other hand it is important to cultivate a kind mind. A mind that accepts, without judging, a need, of some, to, sometimes, love a good god.
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