On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

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[PDF] On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://jo ... WBl32-PB5F
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AbstrAct This article offers a critical reply to the proposal by Arbel (in Buddhist Studies Review 32(2), 2015) that the attainment of the first absorption has in itself a liberating function in the early Buddhist path to awakening. Keywords absorption, awakening, early Buddhism, concentration, insight, liberation Introduction The last issue of the Buddhist Studies Review carries an article by Keren Arbel entitled ‘The Liberative Role of Jhānic Joy (Pīti) and Pleasure (Sukha) in the Early Buddhist Path to Awakening’. Alongside stimulating observations, it seems to me that the article also contains several inaccuracies. In what follows I intend to point these out in order to clear the ground for the continuing discussion regarding the role and function of absorption in the early Buddhist scheme of mental training. The thesis I intend to put into question is the conclusion by Arbel (2015, 181) that ‘the entrance into the first jhāna (and consequently, the progression from one jhāna to the next) is the actualization and embodiment of insight and the development of the seven “awakening factors”.’1 This thesis rests on several planks, central among which seem to me to be Arbel’s interpretations of the terms viveka and vossagga, her assumption that absorption is in itself a condition of wisdom, her suggestion that with the joy and happiness experienced during absorption the underlying tendencies (anusaya) are overcome, and her supposition that there is no textual evidence to the effect that absorption attainment was known before the advent of Buddhism...

A history of jñāna
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ww ... kB6CQmpr3m
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

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l_rivers wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:26 pm
AbstrAct This article offers a critical reply to the proposal by Arbel (in Buddhist Studies Review 32(2), 2015) that the attainment of the first absorption has in itself a liberating function in the early Buddhist path to awakening. Keywords absorption, awakening, early Buddhism, concentration, insight, liberation Introduction The last issue of the Buddhist Studies Review carries an article by Keren Arbel entitled ‘The Liberative Role of Jhānic Joy (Pīti) and Pleasure (Sukha) in the Early Buddhist Path to Awakening’. Alongside stimulating observations, it seems to me that the article also contains several inaccuracies. In what follows I intend to point these out in order to clear the ground for the continuing discussion regarding the role and function of absorption in the early Buddhist scheme of mental training. The thesis I intend to put into question is the conclusion by Arbel (2015, 181) that ‘the entrance into the first jhāna (and consequently, the progression from one jhāna to the next) is the actualization and embodiment of insight and the development of the seven “awakening factors”.’1 This thesis rests on several planks, central among which seem to me to be Arbel’s interpretations of the terms viveka and vossagga, her assumption that absorption is in itself a condition of wisdom, her suggestion that with the joy and happiness experienced during absorption the underlying tendencies (anusaya) are overcome, and her supposition that there is no textual evidence to the effect that absorption attainment was known before the advent of Buddhism...
Keren Arbel is right when she argues that sukha and pīti of the Jhānas are felt through the physical body and mind. She is also right to say that vitakka-vicāra in Jhāna is not normal verbal thought but something more refined, IMO. Her claims about viveka are a bit of a stretch. I think the standard translation of "seclusion" is apt. She is also wrong IMO in equating kāmehi in "vivicceva kāmehi" with "sense desires". Based on the suttas, the kāmehi here are external pleasurable objects. Pleasurable sights, sounds etc. The seclusion from sense desire would fall under vivicca akusalehi, meaning seclusion from the hindrances of which sense desire is one. In the Abhidhamma the Vibhaṅga states that vivicceva kāmehi means seclusion from desires, but in the Niddesa it is said to mean pleasurable objects. The Visuddhimagga recognises both interpretations. On the reading of kāmehi being sense objects it then says there is a bodily seclusion (from the kāmehi) and a mental one (from desire for sense objects) in the 1st Jhāna. This, I think, is the better reading. We see the same idea in the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma as presented in the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-śāstra:
‘Desires’ (kāma) are the five sense objects (pañca kāmaguṇa), colors (rūpa), etc., to which one becomes attached. By means of reflection and analysis, these desires are condemned, as has been said above.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25422.html

She was also right IMO to say that insight can occur whilst in the Jhānas, which is supported by the Jhāna Sutta
The Pāli Jhāna Sutta of the Aṅguttara Nikāya also indicates that insight is developed while one is in the first seven meditative attainments—the four dhyānas and the three lower formless attainments—called “attainments with perception”(saññāsamāpatti).575 This explains that perception (saññā/saṁjñā) is the decisive factor for the development of insight. Due to the limitation of perception in the base of neitherperception- nor-non-perception and the absence of perception in the attainment of cessation (nirodha-samāpatti), there is no development of insight within these two attainments. In the Jhāna Sutta, a yogin develops insight for the destruction of the taints while in the first dhyāna thus:

"Here, monks, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. Whatever states are included there comprised by form, feeling, perception, volitional formations or consciousness; he views those states as impermanent , as suffering, as a disease, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as non-self. Having viewed them thus, his mind then turns away from those states and focuses upon the deathless element."

The parallel of the Jhāna Sutta is not found in the Chinese Āgamas, but is completely preserved in the Dharmaskandha, one of the six pāda works in the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma.577 It is called Qiyi jing 七依經 in the Chinese canon, and is cited by the Abhidharma masters of different schools to demonstrate that the śamatha needed by a yogin to develop insight is the four dhyānas and the three lower formless attainments, namely the “attainments with perception.”578 The *Mahāvibhāṣā, the *Tattvasiddhiśāstra, the *Prakaraṇāryavākāśāstra, and the *Abhidharmasamuccayavyākhyā all cite the Qiyijing 七依經to explain that the extirpation of taints occurs dependent on the first seven meditative attainments; that is, insight is developed while one is in the attainments with perception.579
Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation

Bhante disagrees with this, because he views Jhāna as being absorbed states where the 5 senses cannot occur. Lastly, Keren Arbel was wrong to say the Jhāna's weren't known before the Buddha. The suttas say otherwise.
5. Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now (Diṭṭhadhammanibbānavādā): Views 58–62
“There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of Nibbāna here and now and who, on five grounds, proclaim Nibbāna here and now for an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honourable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

“Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine or view: ‘When this self, good sir, furnished and supplied with the five strands of sense pleasures, revels in them—at this point the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.’ In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because, good sir, sense pleasures are impermanent, suffering, subject to change, and through their change and transformation there arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion—at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.’ In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi?r ... ight=false

The text continues with the other Jhānas. What makes Jhāna Right or Wrong then is not the experience of it, but rather how it is viewed.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

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"suggestion that with the joy and happiness experienced during absorption the underlying tendencies (anusaya) are overcome"

- Such dangerous and distorted teaching. Glad someone have pointed out such deficiencies.

"Bhante disagrees with this, because he views Jhāna as being absorbed states where the 5 senses cannot occur."

- Only in the fourth jhana are the 5 senses stilled.

"On the reading of kāmehi being sense objects it then says there is a bodily seclusion (from the kāmehi) and a mental one (from desire for sense objects) in the 1st Jhāna."

vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi

- One of the ways to understand vivicceva kamehi is as kama raga. (Giving priority and attaching to sensual pleasures that comes through the 5 senses). Akusalehi dhammehi as the 10 immoral actions (dasa akusala) that expands into 40.

- If one wants to differentiate between vivicceva kāmehi (bodily seclusion mentioned by one of the posters) and akusalehi dhammehi (mental one) although calling it bodily or mental one's might not be the most accurate representation since they have quite a bit in common (both does go hand in hand). But if one wants to differentiate it as bodily or mental seclusion. Bodily seclusion here can mean secluded from sensual pleasures that comes through the 5 senses, while mental seclusion means abstaining from dasa akusala.

- Lord Buddha has explained the first step necessary to get into any (anariya or ariya) jhana's "vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi". One can "vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi" by either (anariya) suppressing or (ariya) remove / eliminate defilements.

- Before the time of the Buddha, yogis were already "suppressing" defilements by living a moral life and living in the forest secluded from sensual pleasures, practicing anariya meditations. Now days, meditation is widely taught and practiced as kasina or breath meditation. Even though these types are anariya meditation, it can help "suppress" defilements and help one get into jhanic states, but does not eliminate or remove defilements.

- As for the liberating function of the first absorption, one does not need to attain the first absorption for the liberating function. One can be in the "vicinity" of the first absorption. The keyword is "upasampajja". Upasampajja viharati is translated as "enters and remains". But another way to translate the word "upasampajja" is "abiding in the vicinity". When one has suppressed or eliminate the pañca nīvaraṇa (five hindrances), it can be said one is in the vicinity of the first jhana.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by nirodh27 »

Keren Arbel really tries to demonstrate too much in his book. At the same time I think that she could easily respond to some of the points of Analayo, maybe by tweaking his arguments a little, but in some cases even without. Let's take for example the part of "absorption and wisdom". Jhanas are states of wisdom due to the fact that thanks to vicara/reflection in first jhana wisdom is developed there. In MA102 for example when one is in first jhana the suttas speaks about having thoughts of renunciation and thoughts in accordance with Dhamma: the meditator grows in wisdom and strenghten it exploring dhamma-themes learned before (sati=memory) while feeling pleasure. Analayo instead sees First Jhana as full-absorption without thought and doesn't see the reflection part of the first jhana. This is why for Analayo the claim first jhana = wisdom is so problematic and without undestanding that vitakka&vicara are thinking and reflection of Dhamma themes it certainly make sense for analayo to dismiss such a claim.

Still, even in other terms, the critique of Analayo here is really exaggerated:
If absorption attainment were in itself considered as productive of strong wisdom, one would be at a loss to understand why in the Brahmajāla-sutta and its parallels the attainment of the first absorption features as a source for misinterpretations resulting in deluded views.15 The Brahmajāla-sutta is one of the few discourses quoted by name in another Pāli discourse, which suggests its relative antiquity.16 The parallel versions of the Brahmajāla-sutta exhibit substantial differences in their exposition of morality and thus clearly reflect distinct translation lineages.17 For them to agree in presenting the first absorption as a source for deluded views is fairly strong testimony to the early Buddhist assessment of the nature of this experience
Jhanas "as a source of deluded view". If one looks at the sutta cited here being "a source of deluded view" is simply a point that one could mistake first jhana as Nibbana. One could think that this state is already the end of suffering or the summum bonum and stop there. Such a possibility is not enough to dismiss the fact that first jhana is a place of wisdom and insight yoked together, especially if one uses the 1st and 2nd "tactic" of MN20 (so drawbacks or sostitution).

This is from Analayo about the Brahmajāla-sutta:
The Brahmajāla-sutta’s exposition on views is one of the few instances
where a discourse is quoted by name in another Pāli discourse, a clear token of
the Brahmajāla-sutta’s antiquity.22 As far as textual evidence is concerned, the
testimony of the exposition on views in this discourse has to be taken seriously
as a representation of early Buddhist thought. The relevant passage in the
Dīrgha-āgama version proceeds as follows:23
When having left behind sensuality as well as evil and
unwholesome states, with [directed] contemplation and [sustained]
awareness, with joy and happiness born of seclusion, I attain the
first absorption: this is reckoned Nibbāna here and now.
The Brahmajāla-sutta and its parallels continue in similar ways for the
remaining three absorptions. As explained by Bodhi (1978/1992: 31f), this part
of the discourse depicts “attainers of the four jhānas, who mistake the rapture,
bliss and peacefulness of their attainments for the supreme good.” The Buddha’s
assessment of such jhāna-attainers then takes the following form:24
Recluses and brahmins who declare [of the first absorption] that:
‘this is reckoned Nibbāna here and now’, [do so] conditioned by
feeling, which produces craving. Craving haven arisen, they do
not realize by themselves that they are being defiled by attachment
through craving and are under the power of craving
It would require a week to produce a good comment about this paper, but I think that sometimes Analayo is too easy to dismiss claims of other academics. It is just impossible to refute all the main points of that book in 6 pages, but Analayo seems to think that is both doable and fair :shrug:
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

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Nirodhi27

Please take a week! I believe I am benefiiting from a multifacit over view of these jñāna questions from this thread I could never get from hemmoraging $200 for the 2 books under discussion. :shrug:

AND I am enjoying the enthusiam of folks who have a real background in the Dharma
:bow:
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by nirodh27 »

l_rivers wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:21 pm Nirodhi27

Please take a week! I believe I am benefiiting from a multifacit over view of these jñāna questions from this thread I could never get from hemmoraging $200 for the 2 books under discussion. :shrug:

AND I am enjoying the enthusiam of folks who have a real background in the Dharma
:bow:
It would take a week and it would not be a professional work btw! There's no replacement for good old Dhammic book money hemorraging :tongue:
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

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There's no replacement for good old Dhammic book money hemorraging :tongue:
I can't make myself stop buying books. This is what will be carved on my tombstone.
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

I didn't know that Analayo paper, thanks for posting it. At least I understand he is fully right in the core of the critique. In my case, sometimes I don't agree with some V.Analayo views inside his papers, although here he is fully right, I believe.
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:03 pmJhanas "as a source of deluded view". If one looks at the sutta cited here being "a source of deluded view" is simply a point that one could mistake first jhana as Nibbana. One could think that this state is already the end of suffering or the summum bonum and stop there. Such a possibility is not enough to dismiss the fact that first jhana is a place of wisdom and insight yoked together
Don't you see some contradiction in that point?. If jhana would be an state of wisdom this confusion would be impossible. Jhanas are not states of wisdom but purified abidings which can be a suitable platform to develop wisdom. This development finally can exists or not. As also the perceived Reality can be a suitable platform to develop wisdom or not.

On my knowledge, there are not "stages of wisdom" defined in the Buddha teaching. There are the stages driving to wisdom which are study, contemplation and cultivation of mind.

A practice on jhanas can become a tool or also a tap for wisdom. As also happens with the cultivation of the intellect regarding the knowledge of Reality. Somebody can spend many years practicing jhanas without developing wisdom. And the same can happens regarding the intellect in a pure wisdom approach.

At the end, it is only a deep intuition on anatta, anicca or dukkha what can explain the arising of wisdom (panna) necessary to realize nibbana. This can arise in a pleasant abiding or in an non-pleasurable one.

Advantage of the cultivation of jhanas include the kamma of a good rebirth and to become a refuge regarding the dukkha of the world. Although a risk with the cultivation of jhanas is feeding a wrong belief about jhanas can drive to nibbana by themselves.

Kuranadasa summarize this point quite well:
"The jhāna experience does not represent a stage where the world of mind and matter is transcended. Therefore, in the final analysis the jhāna experience is also conditioned (sahkhata) and dependently arisen (paticcasamuppanna). For Buddhism “suffering” means any kind of “conditioned experience”, whether it is pleasant or painful. And since jhana-experience is also conditioned, it does not represent complete emancipation from suffering"

"The Theravada Abhidhamma". Y.Kuranadasa
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by nirodh27 »

zerotime wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:59 pm I didn't know that Analayo paper, thanks for posting it. At least I understand he is fully right in the core of the critique. In my case, sometimes I don't agree with some V.Analayo views inside his papers, although here he is fully right, I believe.
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:03 pmJhanas "as a source of deluded view". If one looks at the sutta cited here being "a source of deluded view" is simply a point that one could mistake first jhana as Nibbana. One could think that this state is already the end of suffering or the summum bonum and stop there. Such a possibility is not enough to dismiss the fact that first jhana is a place of wisdom and insight yoked together
Don't you see some contradiction in that point?. If jhana would be an state of wisdom this confusion would be impossible. Jhanas are not states of wisdom but purified abidings which can be a suitable platform to develop wisdom. This development finally can exists or not. As also the perceived Reality can be a suitable platform to develop wisdom or not.

On my knowledge, there are not "stages of wisdom" defined in the Buddha teaching. There are the stages driving to wisdom which are study, contemplation and cultivation of mind.
Hi Zerotime,

Sorry for the very brief response, but I'm short of time for the following days!

I think that MA102 and the pali parallel and many other sutta quotes demonstrate that the first jhana is actually a privileged place for getting understanding of the teachings and it is only in second jhana that there's the collectedness of the mind usually attribuited to first jhana, this is ofc not the standard Theravada view.

To say that Jhanas are place of wisdom doesn't mean that they are state of Nibbana and there's full wisdom. But a place in which there's renunciation (you cannot enter jhana without favoring renunciation towards sensuality), the knowledge of the drawbacks and the escape (And if you read MA102 you will see that it is actually by reflection on the drawbacks that the Buddha enters Jhana and it is actually reflection that he did in first jhana too), there's sati and sampajanna, there are no five hindrances so no lust or aversion, there's equanimity is a state of wisdom in that sense.

For me, they are both states of wisdom (if you arrived there as in MA102 and with reflection about the drawbacks) and a platform to develop more wisdom.
A practice on jhanas can become a tool or also a tap for wisdom
I totally agree here, they are not full wisdom, but a tool. A tool that, for me, is already made by a lot of wisdom since the training is gradual.

With Metta and sorry again for the brief response, thanks for engaging!
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

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https://buddhistuniversity.net/content/ ... ukha_arbel

This is the Arbel article that started all this...

Content / Articles /
The Liberative Role of Jhānic Joy (Pīti) and Pleasure (Sukha) in the Early Buddhist Path to Awakening
By Keren Arbel

the common interpretation of the jhānas as absorption-concentration attainments [is] incompatible with the teachings of the Pāli Nikāyas. […] one attains the jhānas, not by one-pointed concentration and absorption into a meditation object, but by releasing and letting go of the foothold of the unwholesome mind […] the entrance into the first jhāna is the actualization and embodiment of insight practice.
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:06 pm
For me, they are both states of wisdom (if you arrived there as in MA102 and with reflection about the drawbacks) and a platform to develop more wisdom.

I totally agree here, they are not full wisdom, but a tool. A tool that, for me, is already made by a lot of wisdom since the training is gradual.

With Metta and sorry again for the brief response, thanks for engaging!
it's ok, now I understand better what you wrote. Thanks :) Then it seems you are not so far from what V.Analayo wrote in his paper-

This issue is interesting, specially in these times because the old polemics about an opposition wisdom/jhanas. Although sometimes it seems many people who are focused in jhanas are no extracting all what the Suttas can show.

In example, look to these different cases on jhanas disciples:

This first Sutta on jhanas is addressed to people who already are ariyas, people who reached nibbana at some ariya stage. In that way, when abiding in a jhana, they can incline their minds to the property of deathless, something already known for them:
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth...
[..]
here is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
AN 9.36
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And this following Sutta on jhanas is addressed to people who are not ariyas. They cannot incline their minds to deathless while abiding in a jhana. Although by abiding frequently in jhanas, after death they will arise in a Brama's heaven. And when the life-span in that realm is exhausted, automatically they are liberated in an automatic way:
"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being.
AN 4.123
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
from both Suttas, we can extract the logical conclusion about wisdom and jhana are 2 separate things. Jhanas cannot drive automatically to nibbana in the same life. On the contrary, it would contradict AN 4.123, in where there is people who are skilled in jhana but they cannot realize nibbana.

Another proof, is when we read how the mastery in jhanas is not acquired by wisdom but with practice, the repetition:
"In the same way, there are cases where a monk — foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with his pasture, unskilled in being quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, and entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation — doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance.' He is not able... to enter & remain in the second jhana..
[...]
"But suppose there was a mountain cow — wise, experienced, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains — and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof only after having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would get to go in a direction she had never gone before... to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when the thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a wise, experienced mountain cow, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains.

AN 9.35
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
experience in practicing jhanas cause the experienced practitioner is able to progress through the jhanas, until the purification of his mind is so high that the end of fermentations will become simply a logical consequence after the arising of the divine-eye knowledge:
"Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.
"If he wants, then through the ending of the mental fermentations, he remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
it is that final experience with the divine-eye, when seeing beings passing away and re-appearing, what causes he can see the nibbana door ("the opening"). And this discernment will mean the end of the mental fermentations, arhanthhod.

Although of course, there is the case of many people relaying on jhanas who also are cultivating wisdom in whatever way they do. In this case, they could enter in the stream from any jhana, because there is a cultivation of wisdom able to favour the arising of discernment ("the opening") from any jhana. Therefore without the necessity of the divine eye to realize things like: "they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma."

This discernment with the divine-after fulfilling the 4 jhana, it is in fact the same basic realization of what happens in a liberation by wisdom focused in the dukkha characteristic of Reality. Although in the case of the divine-eye, even with a bypassing of a cultivation of wisdom, this realization will become fully evident and unavoidable because the divine-eye. It will become obvious, we can say

I believe these different Suttas show how wisdom can arise or not in a cultivation on jhanas. And logically, sounds wiser trying an integration of a cultivation of wisdom/insight/discernment together with a jhana practice. Because the complete progress in 4 jhanas until arhanthood is very difficult in the same life without that support.

Not mention here the case of those people who only rely in jhanas while they don't believe on rebirth: Is this not incoherent?. Because in that case, despite also they can reborn in a Brahma heaven, when that new existence will be finished they couldn't be liberated automatically as the Buddha taught. Because they don't believe in the Buddha teachings in proper terms.


Without cultivation of wisdom, the same abiding in a jhana can have the risk to become a purified jail. This potential sequel is what the Buddha taught in AN 9.42 :
"Now there is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality,[2] secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that directed thought & evaluation have not ceased. This is the confining place there.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
in fact, at the end of that Sutta we read how the opening for the "confining place" will not appear until the cessation of perception & feeling. And the key to open that jail will be again discernment (wisdom/panna):
"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Well, I think this is enough to show how we could define Jhanas like "stages of wisdom" only when there is an underlying cultivation of wisdom.
However, too much times we can see people relying exclusively on a jhana practice while believing there is a fundamental opposition between a cultivation of wisdom or of jhanas. As if it was a matter of choosing.

Even we start to see these days some translations (SuttaCentral) changing "right concentration" by "right immersion", with the logical consequences for problems like this, about the relation between wisdom and jhanas.

One should be cautious these days with the readings.
BrokenBones
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi Zerotime...

How do you infer that they have already achieved some level of enlightenment from this sutta?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

If anything, I would say the opposite.

The practice and lifestyle the Buddha proposes results in the 'Buddha's jhana' (an important distinction). The resulting jhana is infused with and is the result of wisdom... from which point a penetration can take place when the time is right.
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zerotime
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:39 am How do you infer that they have already achieved some level of enlightenment from this sutta?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
because the text shows they already know the property of deathless, that's mean the receptors of that Sutta were at least stream-winners.
If anything, I would say the opposite.

The practice and lifestyle the Buddha proposes results in the 'Buddha's jhana' (an important distinction). The resulting jhana is infused with and is the result of wisdom... from which point a penetration can take place when the time is right.
of course, the knowledge of Dhamma and development of wisdom will polish jhana development and progress. We agree very much.

However, jhana is a mind absorption. This can be of many types and many people can experience a jhana, even non-buddist people. The Buddha modelated the previous experience of people in jhanas to become useful for nibbana.

Somebody can experience a jhana with enough depth, and this can have consequences for their understanding of Reality. I have known people who experienced a clear absorption in jhana without being Buddhists. And they have extracted spiritual conclussions according their ideas. To be useful for nibbana, a jhana should be developed in contact with Dhamma teaching.

A jhana by itself can get more knowledge for the person, a less coarse view on Reality. Although no the arising of the necessary wisdom for nibbana. This wisdom is of an special characteristics because it should arise towards any of the 3 characteristics of Reality, anicca, anatta, dukkha. Without knowledge of the Buddha teaching, people can take a jhana by a blurred spiritual experience, a god connection, or whatever thing. The variety of Religions is explained because this factor in a good extent

There is a Sutta in where the same Buddha explain how he entered in a jhana when he was Siddharta before leaving home. Also, the later teachers of Siddharta were very skilled in jhanas. In other religions and meditation systems also jhana states are developed and ruled by joy, love, and etcetera.

The 4 jhanas taught by the Buddha should be in company of the arising of wisdom(panna) to fructify in nibbana. Jhanas by itself are only abidings of blissful experiences; these cannot cause that arising. Nibbana is unconditioned. At least this is how I understand this.
BrokenBones
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi zerotime

Can you point out the bit where the texts state they were at least stream enterers? I can't see it.

Buddha's jhana is a mind & body experience... not just mind... that's where the confusion comes in.

The Buddha's jhana is the zenith of the eightfold path (what happens or might happen after is part of the tenfold path). People may have random experiences that have some relation to the Buddha's jhanas but they can't sustain them. They would be leading moral lives and at certain times some jhanic experience may randomly appear. But that is what it is; a randomness with no concrete underlying support...the seven other steps of the path... Right View being the biggy. Right View will ultimately be the gateway into the Buddha's jhana and beyond.

The Bodhisattva as a child had a random experience of jhana (a bit more settled & sustained than happens for most of us... but he was after all the future Buddha).

There are also concentrations which appear to have been practiced in the ancient past and continue to be practiced now... these are wrongfully put forward as Buddha's jhana... they're not... they're concentrations; devoid of sense experience and have little of the Buddha's wisdom... plonking your concentration on one spot doesn't appear to have much potential for arousing wisdom.

Just my opinions 🤔
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:31 pm
There are also concentrations which appear to have been practiced in the ancient past and continue to be practiced now... these are wrongfully put forward as Buddha's jhana... they're not... they're concentrations; devoid of sense experience and have little of the Buddha's wisdom... plonking your concentration on one spot doesn't appear to have much potential for arousing wisdom.
You don’t see a role for the formless?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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