nirodh27 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:06 pm
For me, they are both states of wisdom (if you arrived there as in MA102 and with reflection about the drawbacks) and a platform to develop more wisdom.
I totally agree here, they are not full wisdom, but a tool. A tool that, for me, is already made by a lot of wisdom since the training is gradual.
With Metta and sorry again for the brief response, thanks for engaging!
it's ok, now I understand better what you wrote. Thanks
Then it seems you are not so far from what V.Analayo wrote in his paper-
This issue is interesting, specially in these times because the old polemics about an opposition wisdom/jhanas. Although sometimes it seems many people who are focused in jhanas are no extracting all what the Suttas can show.
In example, look to these different cases on jhanas disciples:
This first Sutta on jhanas is addressed to people who already are ariyas, people who reached nibbana at some ariya stage. In that way, when abiding in a jhana, they can incline their minds to the property of deathless, something already known for them:
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth...
[..]
here is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so,
inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
AN 9.36
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And this following Sutta on jhanas is addressed to people who are not ariyas. They cannot incline their minds to deathless while abiding in a jhana. Although by abiding frequently in jhanas, after death they will arise in a Brama's heaven. And when the life-span in that realm is exhausted, automatically they are liberated in an automatic way:
"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being.
AN 4.123
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
from both Suttas, we can extract the logical conclusion about wisdom and jhana are 2 separate things. Jhanas cannot drive automatically to nibbana in the same life. On the contrary, it would contradict AN 4.123, in where there is people who are skilled in jhana but they cannot realize nibbana.
Another proof, is when we read how the mastery in jhanas is not acquired by wisdom but with practice, the repetition:
"In the same way, there are cases where a monk — foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with his pasture, unskilled in being quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, and entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation — doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance.' He is not able... to enter & remain in the second jhana..
[...]
"But suppose there was a mountain cow — wise, experienced, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains — and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof only after having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would get to go in a direction she had never gone before... to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when the thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a wise, experienced mountain cow, familiar with her pasture, skilled in roaming on rugged mountains.
AN 9.35
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
experience in practicing jhanas cause the experienced practitioner is able to progress through the jhanas, until the purification of his mind is so high that the end of fermentations will become simply a logical consequence after the arising of the divine-eye knowledge:
"Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.
"If he wants, then through the ending of the mental fermentations, he remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
it is that final experience with the divine-eye, when seeing beings passing away and re-appearing, what causes he can see the nibbana door ("the opening"). And this discernment will mean the end of the mental fermentations, arhanthhod.
Although of course, there is the case of many people relaying on jhanas who also are cultivating wisdom in whatever way they do. In this case, they could enter in the stream from any jhana, because there is a cultivation of wisdom able to favour the arising of discernment ("the opening") from any jhana. Therefore without the necessity of the divine eye to realize things like:
"they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma."
This discernment with the divine-after fulfilling the 4 jhana, it is in fact the same basic realization of what happens in a liberation by wisdom focused in the dukkha characteristic of Reality. Although in the case of the divine-eye, even with a bypassing of a cultivation of wisdom, this realization will become fully evident and unavoidable because the divine-eye. It will become obvious, we can say
I believe these different Suttas show how wisdom can arise or not in a cultivation on jhanas. And logically, sounds wiser trying an integration of a cultivation of wisdom/insight/discernment together with a jhana practice. Because the complete progress in 4 jhanas until arhanthood is very difficult in the same life without that support.
Not mention here the case of those people who only rely in jhanas while they don't believe on rebirth: Is this not incoherent?. Because in that case, despite also they can reborn in a Brahma heaven, when that new existence will be finished they couldn't be liberated automatically as the Buddha taught. Because they don't believe in the Buddha teachings in proper terms.
Without cultivation of wisdom, the same abiding in a jhana can have the risk to become a purified jail. This potential sequel is what the Buddha taught in AN 9.42 :
"Now there is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality,[2] secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there's a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that directed thought & evaluation have not ceased. This is the confining place there.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
in fact, at the end of that Sutta we read how the opening for the "confining place" will not appear until the cessation of perception & feeling. And the key to open that jail will be again discernment (wisdom/panna):
"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling.
And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Well, I think this is enough to show how we could define Jhanas like "stages of wisdom" only when there is an underlying cultivation of wisdom.
However, too much times we can see people relying exclusively on a jhana practice while believing there is a fundamental opposition between a cultivation of wisdom or of jhanas. As if it was a matter of choosing.
Even we start to see these days some translations (SuttaCentral) changing "right concentration" by "right immersion", with the logical consequences for problems like this, about the relation between wisdom and jhanas.
One should be cautious these days with the readings.