On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
BrokenBones
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:31 pm
There are also concentrations which appear to have been practiced in the ancient past and continue to be practiced now... these are wrongfully put forward as Buddha's jhana... they're not... they're concentrations; devoid of sense experience and have little of the Buddha's wisdom... plonking your concentration on one spot doesn't appear to have much potential for arousing wisdom.
You don’t see a role for the formless?
Perhaps... perhaps not.

Why worry about university when I'm still at school.

I do note that they formed no part of the Buddha's enlightenment... that in itself should give pause for thought on how integral or later such teachings are.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:31 pm
There are also concentrations which appear to have been practiced in the ancient past and continue to be practiced now... these are wrongfully put forward as Buddha's jhana... they're not... they're concentrations; devoid of sense experience and have little of the Buddha's wisdom... plonking your concentration on one spot doesn't appear to have much potential for arousing wisdom.
You don’t see a role for the formless?
Perhaps... perhaps not.

Why worry about university when I'm still at school.

I do note that they formed no part of the Buddha's enlightenment... that in itself should give pause for thought on how integral or later such teachings are.
I think it depends on the individual really. If someone is already practicing the formless or are inclined towards them, then they can be used as a basis for insight. Perhaps a role for those naughty yogic practices after all ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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zerotime
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:31 pm Can you point out the bit where the texts state they were at least stream enterers? I can't see it.
well, you can read how they were able to incline their minds to deathless. This is only possible if they were already ariyas. This is not possible without a previous experience of nibbana because nobody is able to incline the mind towards something he ignore. Logically.
Buddha's jhana is a mind & body experience... not just mind... that's where the confusion comes in.
Not sure about this point.. Do you mean nibbana is realized with such distinction in mind?
Or do you mean the body-mind connection only exists in Buddhist jhanas?. Probably you should know about levitation and similar things in different beliefs....
The Buddha's jhana is the zenith of the eightfold path (what happens or might happen after is part of the tenfold path). People may have random experiences that have some relation to the Buddha's jhanas but they can't sustain them. They would be leading moral lives and at certain times some jhanic experience may randomly appear. But that is what it is; a randomness with no concrete underlying support...the seven other steps of the path... Right View being the biggy. Right View will ultimately be the gateway into the Buddha's jhana and beyond.

The Bodhisattva as a child had a random experience of jhana (a bit more settled & sustained than happens for most of us... but he was after all the future Buddha).

There are also concentrations which appear to have been practiced in the ancient past and continue to be practiced now... these are wrongfully put forward as Buddha's jhana... they're not... they're concentrations; devoid of sense experience and have little of the Buddha's wisdom... plonking your concentration on one spot doesn't appear to have much potential for arousing wisdom.
Just my opinions 🤔
when we talk about Buddha's jhana, it is jhana ruled by Dhamma wisdom. Absorption in itself means nothing except the requested platform to manifest Dhamma wisdom, nibbana.

Note there is people in this world with different beliefs and powerful skills to keep absorption states in meditation. Also Siddharta had some teachers with such mastery. This capacity is a human skill developed under different teachings, which are the real difference.

These skills are not exclusive of Buddhism. Difference in Dhamma is on wisdom by means anatta, anicca and dukkha. in example, in Dhamma there is also the liberation by love (one of the available) as happens in Christianism. What makes the final difference between Christian contemplatives and Buddhism, is anatta. Both jhanas and supranormal skills exists in different religions and beliefs from always. Although are conditioned by wisdom.

Of couse also I agree with what you writes, about Buddhists jhanas are Buddhist jhanas and no other thing. Although the difference is conditioned by the wisdom of Dhamma teaching.

In example, in the people with different beliefs who also keep absorptions in joy and love for a long time, difference is when there is no arising of widom on anatta, anicca and dukkha. Therefore, they cannot attain the end of fermentations. They also will reborn in the Brahma's heavens like their own scriptures says. Although without the Buddha teaching, later they will reborn again, without being finally liberated as happens to those cultivating jhanas with the Dhamma teaching. Because in the people following the Buddha teaching, the kamma to realize nibbana is already imprinted, and this will fructify at the end in that blissful realm as the Buddha taught.

Well, this is how I understand the point.
BrokenBones
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi zerotime

Re the deathless:-

I've never been to a strip club 😳 but if I incline my mind towards such a place I'll surely get there. Inclining one's mind towards something does not imply that one has already experienced it.

My main point is that Buddha's jhana is underpinned and saturated with wisdom and is not just a mindless springboard from which you can start to develop wisdom.

Do you not see that the path is described as having wisdom (View, Sila, Effort & Mindfulness) as being the bedrock for the Buddha's jhana to arise.

I think a lot of misunderstanding has occurred with the oft repeated warning that jhana is not nibbana or the end of the path... this is absolutely true but it has developed into the idea that jhanas are not a major part of the wisdom that will allow enlightenment to arise.

This idea reached its zenith with the vipassana movement where jhana is relegated to a needless backwater despite being the peak of the path that the Buddha outlined. It's not nibbana but it's the last stepping stone before.

Even in the suttas, the Buddha's anupubbikatha teachings to laypeople imply that a jhanic samadhi is part of their sudden entry to the stream... most of us aren't so fortunate and have to put in the hard yards.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:51 pm
Re the deathless:-

I've never been to a strip club 😳 but if I incline my mind towards such a place I'll surely get there. Inclining one's mind towards something does not imply that one has already experienced it.

My main point is that Buddha's jhana is underpinned and saturated with wisdom and is not just a mindless springboard from which you can start to develop wisdom.
Absorbed meditations aren't "mindless". Honestly you would get a better response to your posts if you stopped misrepresenting other people's positions. You can disagree with people without lying about them. Knowingly misrepresenting someone breaks the precept on speech, no?

This idea reached its zenith with the vipassana movement where jhana is relegated to a needless backwater despite being the peak of the path that the Buddha outlined. It's not nibbana but it's the last stepping stone before.
Interestingly, some who opt for a non-absorbed view of Jhāna propose a meditation very similar to the Burmese vipassanā method. For example, Keren Arbel calls her teachings "insight meditations".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:56 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:02 pm

You don’t see a role for the formless?
Perhaps... perhaps not.

Why worry about university when I'm still at school.

I do note that they formed no part of the Buddha's enlightenment... that in itself should give pause for thought on how integral or later such teachings are.
I think it depends on the individual really. If someone is already practicing the formless or are inclined towards them, then they can be used as a basis for insight. Perhaps a role for those naughty yogic practices after all ;)
That is a possibility. It strikes me as a time consuming two pronged approach. I prefer the BOGOF approach... buy one get one free 😉

But the whole formless concentrations debate is a bit of a muddle and while I have no doubt as to the veracity of such attainments I am unsure in my own mind as to there necessity.

Off the top of my head I can't recall a sutta that describes the Buddha himself as entering into the formless perceptions (space, consciousness, nothing, neither perception nor non perception)...even as a Bodhisattva he described two of the attainments differently.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:05 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:56 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:36 pm
Perhaps... perhaps not.

Why worry about university when I'm still at school.

I do note that they formed no part of the Buddha's enlightenment... that in itself should give pause for thought on how integral or later such teachings are.
I think it depends on the individual really. If someone is already practicing the formless or are inclined towards them, then they can be used as a basis for insight. Perhaps a role for those naughty yogic practices after all ;)
That is a possibility. It strikes me as a time consuming two pronged approach. I prefer the BOGOF approach... buy one get one free 😉

But the whole formless concentrations debate is a bit of a muddle and while I have no doubt as to the veracity of such attainments I am unsure in my own mind as to there necessity.

Off the top of my head I can't recall the Buddha himself as ever entering into the formless perceptions (space, consciousness, nothing, neither perception nor non perception)...even as a Bodhisattva he described two of the attainments differently.
I think a case can be made that the Kasiṇa and the formless of infinite space and infinite conciousness all relate to element meditation, whilst Nothingness and Neither-perception-nor-non-perception were separate meditations. Over time, they became amalgamated. Yin Shun made this argument. The Buddha for sure entered Nothingness and Neither-perception-nor-non-perception when he was practicing under his Brahmin teachers. As you admit though, you don't know their relevance. It could be a case they were inserted into the Dhamma (this would have happened incredibly early though), or it could be the case that the Buddha allowed ascetics who were already proficient in them to carry on using them, but combined them with his teachings so they could see the drawbacks and let go. The teachings in Pārāyanavagga looks like this. Since you don't know though, it would be wise to not say "This is true, all else is worthless" when it comes to absorbed meditations such as the Kasiṇa & formless.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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zerotime
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:51 pm Re the deathless:-

I've never been to a strip club 😳 but if I incline my mind towards such a place I'll surely get there. Inclining one's mind towards something does not imply that one has already experienced it.
We can incline the mind towards something unknown. However, no towards its property when this is still unknown.

I understand your analogy. I believe I could build another one using sex. However, maybe there is people without sex experience reading this board.
We can incline the mind when seeing a cake never tasted before because we know the pleasure of eating cakes. However, that new cake is not a cheesecake, strawberry cake, chocolate cake, or any other cake previously tasted. We cannot incline the mind to the property of this cake, because we don't know its taste.

In a similar way, we can incline the mind towards nibbana because we have experience about tasting happiness. Although we cannot incline the mind to the property of nibbana until tasting that.

IMHO that Sutta is addressed to disciples who were already ariyas. There are other Suttas about jhanas which are not addressed only to ariyas.
My main point is that Buddha's jhana is underpinned and saturated with wisdom and is not just a mindless springboard from which you can start to develop wisdom.
there is no a "saturation" of wisdom because the abiding in any experience. There is people who can grow in wisdom practicing jhanas while others no. I believe this is not a problem of the tool but about kamma. Also there is people who become engaged in a tool which kammically couldn't be the best choosing. However, this situation is also more kamma and is impossible to know what is the right thing for each person. Most times one doesn't know for oneself, therefore how to know about third people. Such knowledge of other people is exclusive for a Buddha. This is one of the 6 knowledges exclusives of a Buddha.
Do you not see that the path is described as having wisdom (View, Sila, Effort & Mindfulness) as being the bedrock for the Buddha's jhana to arise.
these are components present in any type of cultivation. Also, note the cultivation of jhanas is a practice to get skills to abide in jhanas. However, a jhanic absorption also will arise in a cultivation of wisdom at the moment of the path to nibbana, although lasting just some instants
I think a lot of misunderstanding has occurred with the oft repeated warning that jhana is not nibbana or the end of the path... this is absolutely true but it has developed into the idea that jhanas are not a major part of the wisdom that will allow enlightenment to arise.
that's not my case. At least I agree the cultivation of jhanas is a main tool of the training taught by the Buddha.
This idea reached its zenith with the vipassana movement where jhana is relegated to a needless backwater despite being the peak of the path that the Buddha outlined. It's not nibbana but it's the last stepping stone before.
Even in the suttas, the Buddha's anupubbikatha teachings to laypeople imply that a jhanic samadhi is part of their sudden entry to the stream... most of us aren't so fortunate and have to put in the hard yards.
yes, as you writes there is a very short jhanic absorption in such cases. This is an issue maybe not well developed or explained in the tradition. I think the same here.

Anyway, the arising of mdoern vipassana practices was due to factors different than an opposition against the seated meditation or the jhanas. At the end of 19th century and beginnings of 20th, the alphabetization and the spreading of printed books caused a new interest in many lay people in Asia to practice, beyond a simple devotional position. The spreading of the vipassana teachings was a very compassive reaction of the Burmese Sangha with the lay followers, giving to them new powerful tools more suitable for the lay life.

Anyway, there is no doubt the cultivation of jhanas is a main tool inside the Buddha teaching. As also the cultivation of wisdom, loving-kindness, etcetera. If one feel faith in his own approach there is no reason to change that. Neither to dismiss the rest, I believe.
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zerotime
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

These can be interesting points inside the soruces:

- the role of wisdom like a specific factor is requested to fulfill any jhana. This appears even in the highest jhanas:
Citta asked him a further question: "How many mental qualities are of great help in the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"Actually, householder, you have asked last what should have been asked first. Nevertheless, I will answer you. Two qualities are of great help in the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling: tranquillity & insight."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

- the jhanic absorption in itself only drive to the absorption in itself. This is explained in the Samadhi Sutta AN 4.41, in where the 4 types of concentration are explained. Here we can read how the development of concentration leading to Jhana only can drive to the abiding in that Jhana:
"This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now."
it is only the 4th type, the arising of insight/wisdom, what can fuel the progress for nibbana and also the end of fermentations:
"Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

All four concentrations have jhana as the basis in the sutta...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
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zerotime
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:19 am All four concentrations have jhana as the basis in the sutta...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
yes, precisely. This is a Sutta for the cultivation of jhanas.
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by BrokenBones »

zerotime wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:50 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:19 am All four concentrations have jhana as the basis in the sutta...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
yes, precisely. This is a Sutta for the cultivation of jhanas.
Yes... it's a progressive/gradual teaching. The Dhamma wisdom used to enter the jhanas is used to go beyond.
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by confusedlayman »

Verbal is thinking and pondering wbich is absent in second jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by nirodh27 »

....written very fast!
zerotime wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:26 am
This issue is interesting, specially in these times because the old polemics about an opposition wisdom/jhanas. Although sometimes it seems many people who are focused in jhanas are no extracting all what the Suttas can show.
I think that this is very true, and I think that the opposition is beautifully resolved in the suttas.
from both Suttas, we can extract the logical conclusion about wisdom and jhana are 2 separate things. Jhanas cannot drive automatically to nibbana in the same life. On the contrary, it would contradict AN 4.123, in where there is people who are skilled in jhana but they cannot realize nibbana.
I agree that jhana cannot bring you to Nibbana "automatically", his role is to "slope, incline" (as the suttas says) towards it. For wisdom and jhana being 2 separate things, that is only if you equate wisdom = experience of nibbana/deathless. But I would maintain that this insight vs concentration is a non-issue in the suttas since wisdom and insight are cultivated while into the first jhana due to reflection about the Dhamma (Vicara on the teachings). So for example first jhana is a place in which you finally see renunciation as the best options towards sensuality and you develop, pursue that theme and many other Dhamma themes, what is that if not wisdom and the development of it.

I don't think that AN9.35 says that it is practice that makes one a jhana master, but:
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation — doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it.
It is the development of themes of Dhamma (so evaluation of the teachings with vitakka & vicara) that makes a first jhana "firm, stable" so that the intent of renunciation is firm in the mind and the u-turn from sensuality is done. Only then you can hope to realize second jhana, in which thoughts are stopped. You don't have to rush going to second jhana until the first jhana, so the intent of renunciation and the abandonment of the hindrances, is firm and stable.

This fact that Jhana is about practice and repetition is only partially true, what is important is the mind inclining to renunciation, discovering that renunciation is a more stable and good object for our own happiness. First jhana is quite a revolution (Although not nibbana) and that is why it is a state of wisdom in my terms. But it is wisdom that brings you there and mantains you there (the analisys and reflection about the allure, drawbacks and the escape). See MN19 and MA102 for reference to this.
Although of course, there is the case of many people relaying on jhanas who also are cultivating wisdom in whatever way they do. In this case, they could enter in the stream from any jhana, because there is a cultivation of wisdom able to favour the arising of discernment ("the opening") from any jhana.
You can look at the book of Kumara Bhikku (there's a link somewhere on the site, Kumara sometimes also posts here on DW) for an analysis about Jhana and Insight being cultivated togheter and how the usual understanding of Jhana separates the two in an unnecessary way.
And logically, sounds wiser trying an integration of a cultivation of wisdom/insight/discernment together with a jhana practice.
What is best is to mix the two! So you can cultivate wisdom while you have the pleasure of renunciation giving you shelter and spiritual food.
However, too much times we can see people relying exclusively on a jhana practice while believing there is a fundamental opposition between a cultivation of wisdom or of jhanas. As if it was a matter of choosing.
My understanding of the jhanas with thought and evaluation in first jhana (which is quite recognized now in academia and by some monks) is in fact born for this dissatisfaction from the theravada jhana practice: even if pleasure is there and concentration is pleasurable (and I'm pretty prone/skilled in concentration naturally), it doesn't and cannot bring wisdom by itself. Yet, for the suttas jhanas are essential to the practice and right samadhi (jhana) is the pinnacle of the path. I felt stuck after careful practice. I've found that Jhanas are way more interesting than simple concentration on a point letting go (avoiding?) of the world momentarily, Jhanas are the cultivation of wisdom and the letting go is developed by the careful analysis of the teachings.

With Metta!
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Re: On the Supposedly Liberating Function of the First Absorption BHIKKHU ANāLAYO

Post by zerotime »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:12 pm
My understanding of the jhanas with thought and evaluation in first jhana (which is quite recognized now in academia and by some monks) is in fact born for this dissatisfaction from the theravada jhana practice: even if pleasure is there and concentration is pleasurable (and I'm pretty prone/skilled in concentration naturally), it doesn't and cannot bring wisdom by itself. Yet, for the suttas jhanas are essential to the practice and right samadhi (jhana) is the pinnacle of the path. I felt stuck after careful practice. I've found that Jhanas are way more interesting than simple concentration on a point letting go (avoiding?) of the world momentarily, Jhanas are the cultivation of wisdom and the letting go is developed by the careful analysis of the teachings.
I agree with most of what you writes, I mean in the practical terms to focus the Path. So in this point I celebrate your understanding. At least I believe you are fully right in integrating both. Sure it will bring more fruits to yours. :smile:

However, I don't agree about a recent spreaded view, to equate right samadhi = jhana. Despite I understand that for any jhana practitioner, the right samadhi can be fully connected with a right fulfillment of a jhana.

Or better to say: it is not right saying the right samadhi only can arise under a practice on jhanas. There are too many examples inside the Suttas showing people who attain right samadhi and nibbana without a previous practice of jhanas. And also tons of scholar stuff, plus Abhidhamma, Commentaries and a long Buddhist History with many people.

A different issue to discuss, is when all the people who attain right samadhi and nibbana without a practice of jhanas, also they would be fulfilling a jhana in a speedy way, at those previous instants to enter in nibbana. This explanation can be supported with Suttas, Abhidhamma, commentaries and the experiences of many people in the Buddhist History.

I believe the understanding of this difference is very important. Because these days we can find in example, a new wrong translation of "right samadhi" by "right immersion" performed in the SuttaCentral site. This is a serious mistake for a reliable source of Buddhist texts. This can cause a confusion about the nature of nibbana and its relation with our experience of Reality. And also it causes serious incoherences in all those episodes inside the Suttas in where there is no a jhana practice despite there is right samadhi and nibbana. Not mention also about the classifications of different types of arhanthood, different practices of disciples, and more issues.

However, I fear that even a experienced practitioner on jhanas cannot imagine how it can happens when this is not part of his own experience of progress whatever it can be. And in the same way, also I have found people focused in a cultivation of wisdom who deny the validity of a jhana practice. Because also they cannot understand its sense. In both directions, while more knowledge this people accumulate in his own way, stronger can become their inability to understand other paths of practice. This is more difficult to understand than the discussion itself !! :lol:

When I have discovered that new strange translation of "right immersion", unfortunately I had to abandon the links to SuttaCentral. Now I prefer to use Accesstoinsight or another source. I know there are also reliable translations inside SuttaCentral. Although many people can acquire a serious mistakes and obstacles when reading "right immersion" in Suttas not related with a cultivation of jhanas. I'm not any obsess to avoid bad kamma in all the actions we do, although this is the type of kamma that I prefer to avoid when I'm aware of.

Jumping over this point, for the rest I agree with all what you writes about integrating wisdom and meditation. Your focus in the Path sounds fully right. And this is the important thing, It isn't?

Metta for you too ! :namaste:
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