Generally people do not have it yet
What experiences Nirvana?
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12977
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Mundane Right View at least is the dominant view of humanity, at the moment.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
-
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Does that mean Saṁsāra is also niccā?
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12977
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Not that I encounter
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Possibly if you rarefy saṁsāra, but that would take you down the road of speculative views like when the Buddha was asked if all beings would find nibbāna or some of them would. He didn't reply, because the speculation lends itself to grasping. Saṁsāra is without discoverable beginning, but everything which arises will cease. The ultimate truth is of no arising, no ceasing, no change, no persisting. No impermanence, no permanence, no saṁsāra, no nibbāna. Impermanence is a perception, and perception is dependently originated and eventually let go of. The Dhamma is to be used as a raft for crossing over, rather than as a basis for theorising.Dhammapardon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:36 pmDoes that mean Saṁsāra is also niccā?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
-
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Mon May 09, 2022 12:11 am
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Thank youCeisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:45 pmPossible if you rarefy saṁsāra, but that would take you down the road of speculative views like when the Buddha was asked if all beings would find nibbāna or some of them would. He didn't reply, because the speculation lends itself to grasping. Saṁsāra is without discoverable beginning, but everything which arises will cease. The ultimate truth is of no arising, no ceasing, no change, no persisting. No impermanence, no permanence, no saṁsāra, no nibbāna. Impermanence is a perception, and perception is dependently originated and eventually let go of. The Dhamma is to be used as a raft for crossing over, rather than as a basis for theorising.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
-
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Sure, if 'person' is reified, then no one visits the grocery store, and then leaves it. And then no one visits the grocery store again, and then leaves it again. And yet there is the arising of 'grocery store' and then 'not grocery store'.cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:10 pmHere we are againriceandcashews wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:07 pm But in reality, no one anywhere is actually ever reborn. And yet here we are.
If 'person' is not reified, then a person visits the grocery store, and then a person leaves, and then a person returns and a person leaves again.
Similary:
if 'person' is reified, then no one is born as a human, and then dies. And then no one is born as a human again, and then dies again. And yet there is the arising of 'birth as a human' and then 'death'.
If 'person' is not reified, then a person is born, and then dies. And then that person is born again, and then dies.
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12977
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Come down to earthriceandcashews wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:51 pm If 'person' is not reified, then a person is born, and then dies. And then that person is born again, and then dies.
-
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Unfortunately I can't read the tone behind your comment because it is text. I assume you're trying to be condescending?cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:55 pmCome down to earthriceandcashews wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:51 pm If 'person' is not reified, then a person is born, and then dies. And then that person is born again, and then dies.
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12977
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
I mean be more grounded, just advicericeandcashews wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:06 am Unfortunately I can't read the tone behind your comment because it is text. I assume you're trying to be condescending?
-
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Sure, maybe I need to be more grounded. Or maybe you need to be more elevated?cappuccino wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:27 amI mean be more grounded, just advicericeandcashews wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:06 am Unfortunately I can't read the tone behind your comment because it is text. I assume you're trying to be condescending?
But sincerely, it seems like maybe you are reading a lot more into my mental state than is given in the context of the posts themselves? What are you reading into my actions and writing that leads you to say things like 'come down to earth' and 'be grounded' to me? I mean, maybe they're accurate. I'm no arahant, I have no problem admitting that, so I definitely have my issues as a person. So, what's your take on my issues, cap, that lends to me needing to be more grounded and down to earth?
And/or you can give me your perspective on the content of my post about nirvana as well?
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12977
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
well, I think Buddhism is about facing the unsatisfactory nature of lifericeandcashews wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:47 am So, what's your take on my issues, cap, that lends to me needing to be more grounded and down to earth?
which manifests in very mundane ways
hence I am tired of theory and speculation, in general
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Like a candle flame that gets extinguished when the fuel runs out. Nirodha.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:26 pm More fully
“Seniya, the first teacher who has the view that in the present world there truly is a self and who speaks according to his understanding, he is reckoned as having the view of annihilation.
“The second teacher who has the view that in the present world and in the future world there truly is a self, and who speaks according to his understanding, he has the view of eternalism.
“The third teacher who does not have the view that in the present world there truly is a self, and who also does not have the view that in the afterlife there [truly] is a self ― this is the Tathāgata, the arahant, the fully awakened one, who in the present has abandoned craving, become separated from desire, has made them cease, and has attained Nirvāṇa.”
Thus the image underlying nibbana is one of freedom. The Pali commentaries support this point by tracing the word nibbana to its verbal root, which means "unbinding." What kind of unbinding? The texts describe two levels. One is the unbinding in this lifetime, symbolized by a fire that has gone out but whose embers are still warm. This stands for the enlightened arahant, who is conscious of sights and sounds, sensitive to pleasure and pain, but freed from passion, aversion, and delusion. The second level of unbinding, symbolized by a fire so totally out that its embers have grown cold, is what the arahant experiences after this life. All input from the senses cools away and he/she is totally freed from even the subtlest stresses and limitations of existence in space and time.
The Buddha insists that this level is indescribable, even in terms of existence or nonexistence, because words work only for things that have limits. All he really says about it — apart from images and metaphors — is that one can have foretastes of the experience in this lifetime, and that it's the ultimate happiness, something truly worth knowing.
So the next time you watch a fire going out, see it not as a case of annihilation, but as a lesson in how freedom is to be found in letting go.
Thanissaro
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
-
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
Hmm, I don't quite see Buddhism the same way. I see Buddhism as about learning to more skillfully identify the things in life that are more joyful, pleasant, and rewarding and the things in life that are more harmful, painful, and damaging, gradually aiming at more refined happiness.cappuccino wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:43 amwell, I think Buddhism is about facing the unsatisfactory nature of life,which manifests in very mundane waysriceandcashews wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:47 am So, what's your take on my issues, cap, that lends to me needing to be more grounded and down to earth?
This piece by Thanissaro, esp. the parts that emphasize mudita, or joy, is relevant to my view if you are interested: https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Medit ... n0028.html
That's absolutely understandable. Buddhist theory can definitely become objectified and lead to endless conceptualization that does not lead to the goal. On the other hand right view is an important thing too. So there's a balance of developing right view along with non-fixation on right view.
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12977
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: What experiences Nirvana?
I am being ascetic
Somewhat