Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

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Dhammapardon
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Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Dhammapardon »

Good day venerables,

I understand Bhava as becoming and loka/loko as world.
So does Bhavaloko mean the world becoming?
What about sambhavaloko? "Together becoming the world"?

Is there a better translation? Multiple translations?

Any insights welcome. :anjali:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
Dhammapardon
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Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Dhammapardon »

I guess I'm trying to go here with it..

Dve - twice
Loka - The world
Bhavaloko - the becoming world
Bhava - becoming
ca - and, both, also, as well as
sam - together
sambhava - origin/birth
sampatti - fortune, happiness, success, attainment
vipatti - misfortune, unhappiness, failure, loss

Nidd II utf8
Dve lokā: bhavaloko ca sambhavaloko ca,
sampattibhavaloko ca sampattisambhavaloko ca,
vipattibhavaloko vipattisambhavaloko ca.


Twice the world (Two worlds?): The becoming world as well as origin/birth world,
success/gain becoming world as well as success/gain origin/birth world,
failure/loss becoming world as well as failure/loss origin/birth world.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
Dhammapardon
Posts: 373
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Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Dhammapardon »

Oh...I think bhavaloko is "conventional world" as it relates to the two truths doctrine.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Mumfie
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Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Mumfie »

Dhammapardon wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:56 am I understand Bhava as becoming and loka/loko as world.
So does Bhavaloko mean the world becoming?
What about sambhavaloko? "Together becoming the world"?

Is there a better translation?
Bhavaloka means the same as gati - the postmortem destination beings arrives at on account of their kamma.

Sambhavaloka is a term for the kamma that determines that destination.

Sampattibhavaloka and vipattibhavaloka mean the same as sugati and duggati respectively - good and bad destinations.

Sampattisambhavaloka and vipattisambhavaloka mean the same as wholesome and unwholesome kamma, but especially in the context of the kamma that ripens at death and determines one's rebirth.

Your Niddesa passage might be translated:


Two worlds:-

"a world of existence and a world productive of existence;
"a world of good fortune and a world [of kammas that are] productive of good fortune;
"a world of misfortune and a world [of kammas that are] productive of misfortune."
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Cashews
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Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:42 am

Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Cashews »

Dhammapardon wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:56 am Any insights welcome.
Hi. What you are inquiring about is part of series of extensive lists in the internal Khuddaka Nikaya commentaries, such as the Cūḷaniddesa & Paṭisambhidāmagga. Therefore, we probably need to try to workout the bigger picture of these lists before focusing on a single verse. Your verse comes from this list:
Lokantagū sabbabhavātivatto ti. One who has reached the end of the world; the end of entire round of becoming.

Loko ti
eko loko— bhavaloko. One world. World of becoming.
Dve lokā. Two worlds — bhavaloko (world of becoming) ca sambhavaloko ca (world produced by becoming); sampattibhavaloko (world of becoming successful) ca sampattisambhavaloko (world produced by becoming successful) ca; vipattibhavaloko (world of becoming unfortunate) ca vipattisambhavaloko (world produced by becoming unfortunate) ca.
Tayo lokā— tisso vedanā. Three worlds: Three kinds of feeling.
Cattāro lokā— cattāro āhārā. Four worlds: Four kinds of nutriment.
Pañca lokā— pañcupādānakkhandhā. Five worlds: Five aggregates as objects of clinging.
Cha lokā— cha ajjhattikāni āyatanāni. Six worlds: Six internal bases.
Satta lokā— sattaviññāṇaṭṭhitiyo. Seven worlds: Seven stations of consciousness.
Aṭṭha lokā— aṭṭha lokadhammā. Eight worlds: Eight worldly ideas.
Nava lokā— nava sattāvāsā. Nine worlds: Nine abodes of beings.
Dasa lokā— dasa āyatanāni. Ten worlds: Ten bases [excluding mind and ideas].
Dvādasa lokā— dvādasāyatanāni. Twelve worlds: Twelve bases.
Aṭṭhārasa lokā— aṭṭhārasa dhātuyo. Eighteen worlds: Eighteen elements.

Lokantagū ti bhagavā lokassa antagato antappatto koṭigato koṭippatto … nibbānagato nibbānappatto. So vutthavāso ciṇṇacaraṇo … jātimaraṇasaṁsāro natthi tassa punabbhavoti— lokantagū.

https://suttacentral.net/cnd22/pli/ms?l ... ript=latin
The Paṭisambhidāmagga has a similar list:
LXVIII. Penetration of Others' Faculties
573. What is the Perfect One's knowledge of penetration of others' faculties?

574. Here the Perfect One (tathāgata) sees beings as with little dust on their eyes, as with much dust on their eyes, as with keen faculties, as with dull faculties, as of good parts, as of bad parts, as easy to instruct, as hard to instruct, and also some who see fear in the other world and in what is censurable, and also some who see no fear in the other world and in what is censurable.

575. With little dust on their eyes, with much dust on their eyes:

A person with faith has little dust on his eyes; a person without faith has much dust on his eyes. An energetic person has little dust on his eyes; an idle person has much dust on his eyes. A person with established mindfulness has little dust on his eyes; a forgetful person has much dust on his eyes. A concentrated person has little dust on his eyes; an unconcentrated person has much dust on his eyes. A person with understanding has little dust on his eyes; a person without understanding has much dust on his eyes.

576. With keen faculties, with dull faculties:

A person with faith has keen faculties; a person without faith has dull faculties … [and so on with rest of the five faculties].

577. Of good parts, of bad parts:

A person with faith is one of good parts; a person without faith is one of bad parts …

578. Easy to instruct, hard to instruct:

A person with faith is easy to instruct; a person without faith is hard to instruct …

579. Also some who see fear in the other world and in what is censurable and also some who see no fear in the other world and in what is censurable:

A person with faith sees fear in the other world and in what is censurable; a person without faith sees no fear in the other world and in what is censurable … a person without understanding sees no fear in the other world and in what is censurable.

580. World:

World of aggregates, world of principles, world of bases, world of misfortune, world productive of misfortune, world of good fortune, world productive of good fortune.

One world: All beings subsist by nutriment.

Two worlds: Mentality and materiality.

Three worlds: Three kinds of feeling.

Four worlds: Four kinds of nutriment.

Five worlds: Five aggregates as objects of clinging.

Six worlds: Six internal bases.

Seven worlds: Seven stations of consciousness.

Eight worlds: Eight worldly ideas.

Nine worlds: Nine abodes of beings.

Ten worlds: Ten bases [excluding mind and ideas].

Twelve worlds: Twelve bases.

Eighteen worlds: Eighteen principles.

581. What is censurable:

All defilements are censurable, all misconduct … all volitional formations … all actions that lead to being are censurable.

582. So sharp perception of terror of the world as just described, for the censurable as just described, is established, as it were of a murderer with poised weapon.

583. He knows and sees and recognizes and penetrates these five faculties in these fifty aspects.

This is the Perfect One's knowledge of penetration of others' faculties.

https://suttacentral.net/ps1.1/en/nyana ... ight=false
Therefore, we should try to work out what the Cūḷaniddesa Pārāyanavagganiddesa (Exposition of the Way to the Beyond) is about, particularly the entire paragraph you are inquiring about and also the paragraphs before & after it.

The verse you are inquiring about is included in: "One who has reached the end of the world; the end of the entire round of becoming".

The previous paragraph is about: Tamonudo buddho samantacakkhū ti. The Dispeller of Darkness The Buddha All Seeing

The related paragraph after is about the Entire Round of Becoming (Sabbabhavātivatto), which is easy to translate/understand:
Sabbabhavātivatto ti. Bhavā ti dve bhavā— kammabhavo ca paṭisandhiko ca punabbhavo. Katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro apuññābhisaṅkhāro āneñjābhisaṅkhāro— ayaṁ kammabhavo. Katamo paṭisandhiko punabbhavo? Paṭisandhikā rūpā vedanā saññā saṅkhārā viññāṇaṁ— ayaṁ paṭisandhiko punabbhavo. Bhagavā kammabhavañca paṭisandhikañca punabbhavaṁ ativatto atikkanto vītivattoti— lokantagū sabbabhavātivatto.
The next paragraph after is about: Anāsavo sabbadukkhappahīno ti. Free from Asava All Suffering Destroyed.
Dhammapardon wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:56 am I understand Bhava as becoming and loka/loko as world.
So does Bhavaloko mean the world becoming?
What about sambhavaloko? "Together becoming the world"?
I translate it as:
Dve lokā. Two worlds — bhavaloko (world of becoming) ca sambhavaloko ca (world produced by becoming); sampattibhavaloko (world of becoming successful) ca sampattisambhavaloko (world produced by becoming successful) ca; vipattibhavaloko (world of becoming unfortunate) ca vipattisambhavaloko (world produced by becoming unfortunate) ca.
Bhavaloko is kammabhavo.
Sambhavaloko is paṭisandhiko punabbhavo. :smile:
Mumfie wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:13 am Bhavaloka means the same as gati - the postmortem destination beings arrives at on account of their kamma.

Sambhavaloka is a term for the kamma that determines that destination.
In my opinion, the above is mixed up.

Imo, bhavaloka is the term for the kamma that determines a destination.

Sambhavaloka means the same as the gati destination beings arrive at on account of their kamma. :smile:
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Mumfie
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Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Mumfie »

Cashews wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:30 am In my opinion, the above is mixed up.

Imo, bhavaloka is the term for the kamma that determines a destination.

Sambhavaloka means the same as the gati destination beings arrive at on account of their kamma. :smile:
I believe what I stated in my post is in line with the glosses supplied in Upasena's commentary to the Cullaniddesa and Mahānāma's commentary to the Patisambhidamagga, in which:-

1. Bhavaloko = tebhūmakavipāko (karmic resultants of the three worldly planes).
2. Sampattibhavaloko = sugatiloko (world that's a happy destination).
3. Vipattibhavaloko = apāyaloko (world of the four lower realms).
4. Sampattisambhavaloko = sugatūpagaṃ kammaṃ (karma conducive to a happy destination).
5. Vipattisambhavaloko = apāyūpagaṃ kammaṃ (karma conducive to the four lower realms).

Here are both in full:
Upasena

Eko loko bhavalokoti tebhūmakavipāko. So hi bhavatīti bhavo, bhavo eva loko bhavaloko. Bhavaloko ca sambhavaloko cāti ettha ekeko dve dve hoti. Bhavaloko hi sampattibhavavipattibhavavasena duvidho.

Sambhavalokopi sampattisambhavavipattisambhavavasena duvidho. Tattha sampattibhavalokoti sugatiloko. So hi iṭṭhaphalattā sundaro lokoti sampatti, bhavatīti bhavo, sampatti eva bhavo sampattibhavo, so eva loko sampattibhavaloko. Sampattisambhavalokoti sugatūpagaṃ kammaṃ. Tañhi sambhavati etasmā phalanti sambhavo, sampattiyā sambhavo sampattisambhavo, sampattisambhavo eva loko sampattisambhavalokoti.

Vipattibhavalokoti apāyaloko. So hi aniṭṭhaphalattā virūpo lokoti vipatti, bhavatīti bhavo, vipatti eva bhavo vipattibhavo, vipattibhavo eva loko vipattibhavaloko. Vipattisambhavalokoti apāyūpagaṃ kammaṃ. Tañhi sambhavati etasmā phalanti sambhavo, vipattiyā sambhavo vipattisambhavo, vipattisambhavo eva loko vipattisambhavalokoti.
Mahānāma

Vipattibhavalokoti apāyaloko. So hi aniṭṭhaphalattā virūpo lābhoti vipatti, bhavatīti bhavo, vipatti eva bhavo vipattibhavo, vipattibhavo eva loko vipattibhavaloko.

Vipattisambhavalokoti apāyūpagaṃ kammaṃ. Tañhi sambhavati etasmā phalanti sambhavo, vipattiyā sambhavo vipattisambhavo, vipattisambhavo eva loko vipattisambhavaloko.

Sampattibhavalokoti sugatiloko. So hi iṭṭhaphalattā sundaro lābhoti sampatti, bhavatīti bhavo, sampatti eva bhavo sampattibhavo, sampattibhavo eva loko sampattibhavaloko.

Sampattisambhavalokoti sugatūpagaṃ kammaṃ. Tañhi sambhavati etasmā phalanti sambhavo, sampattiyā sambhavo sampattisambhavo, sampattisambhavo eva loko sampattisambhavaloko. Eko lokotiādīni heṭṭhā vuttatthāneva.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Cashews
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Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Cashews »

Mumfie wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:30 am I believe what I stated in my post is in line with the glosses supplied in Upasena's commentary to the Cullaniddesa and Mahānāma's commentary to the Patisambhidamagga, in which:-

1. Bhavaloko = tebhūmakavipāko (karmic resultants of the three worldly planes).
2. Sampattibhavaloko = sugatiloko (world that's a happy destination).
3. Vipattibhavaloko = apāyaloko (world of the four lower realms).
4. Sampattisambhavaloko = sugatūpagaṃ kammaṃ (karma conducive to a happy destination).
5. Vipattisambhavaloko = apāyūpagaṃ kammaṃ (karma conducive to the four lower realms).
Excellent. I will not argue the issue but I disagree with the Commentary. I am not conclusive about it but I think 'sambhava' refers to a maturation of becoming. However, I am not interested in this entire genre of teachings that depart from the Suttas. In the Suttas, the resultant destinations of kamma are 'jati' rather than 'bhava'.
And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

AN 6.63
I understood how beings pass on according to their actions thus: ‘These worthy beings who were ill conducted in body, speech, and mind, revilers of noble ones, wrong in their views, giving effect to wrong view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a state of deprivation, in a bad destination, in perdition, even in hell; but these worthy beings who were well conducted in body, speech, and mind, not revilers of noble ones, right in their views, giving effect to right view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a good destination, even in the heavenly world.’

MN 4
If there were absolutely and utterly no birth of any kind anywhere—that is, of gods into the state of gods, of celestials into the state of celestials, of spirits, demons, human beings, quadrupeds, winged creatures, and reptiles, each into their own state—if there were no birth of beings of any sort into any state, then, in the complete absence of birth, with the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?

DN 15
Dhammapardon
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Re: Bhavaloko (Best English translation?)

Post by Dhammapardon »

Thank you both for your time and effort examining these words. I find this language increasingly beautiful and the examinations above lend greatly to understanding it better. I'll be using this as reference for some time to come. :clap:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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