The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

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santa100
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by santa100 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:19 am
santa100 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:17 amTechnically speaking, Christians should be under even more pressure to do good things because once they're cast down to their Christian Hell, they'd be doomed forever [...]
You underestimate how antinomian Classical Protestantism is. Luther said "Sin boldly."

Methodism is likely more your style than Calvinism.
Well, if I remember correctly, mario99 lives in Latin America, the Catholic fortress.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by mario92 »

santa100 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:17 am
mario92 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:46 am It is allways better to convert to buddhism because christians doesnt believe in karma and might do bad deeds without knowing the results, the sooner you get to know the true dhamma the better.
Technically speaking, Christians should be under even more pressure to do good things because once they're cast down to their Christian Hell, they'd be doomed forever without ever climbing back up the hierarchy, unlike the Buddhist Hell where there's still hope for a better rebirth once one's paid his dues. And whatever happens to those 10 Commandments which are pretty similar to the Buddhist precepts: thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife, etc...??
Yes but i had gone to church they dont make emphasis in those teachings, they think by merely believing in God will go to heaven, that is the general tought, so in my opinion they dont practice sila, just looking at the behaviour in my city of christians, catholics, they do a lot of bad deeds that are normalized. And i know it also because i have catholic parents.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Latin America is increasingly Pentecostal, and the influence of the "Prosperity Gospel," a Protestant aberration, is massive there, like in Korea.

American exports to the former third world. They'll take what America increasingly doesn't want. Like Africa.
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santa100
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by santa100 »

mario92 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:24 am Yes but i had gone to church they dont make emphasis in those teachings, they think by merely believing in God will go to heaven, that is the general tought, so in my opinion they dont practice sila, just looking at the behaviour in my city of christians, catholics, they do a lot of bad deeds that are normalized. And i know it also because i have catholic parents.
That sucks. Catholics trashing the 10-Cmds and Buddhists dumping the 5-Precepts. Well, at least Buddhists won't be the only ones who'll have to go thru the Dhamma-ending Age. Looks like we get ourselves quite a bunch of companions then... :thinking:
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by santa100 »

Coëmgenu wrote:American exports to the former third world. They'll take what America increasingly doesn't want.
Increasingly doesn't want? Well, thanks for thinking highly of Americans... :tongue:
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Milinda »

:thinking:
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:24 am Latin America is increasingly Pentecostal, and the influence of the "Prosperity Gospel," a Protestant aberration, is massive there, like in Korea.

American exports to the former third world. They'll take what America increasingly doesn't want. Like Africa.
Im not a very fan about Christianity in general, but these Pentecotals churches , they are a total heresy and an american sect.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Milinda wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:32 pm

"I believe that the French, who are Christian by culture and ancestry, should remain Christian. It is better to stick to your own traditional values.... It is only if, after mature reflection, you believe that Buddhism could offer you more than Christianity that you should become a Buddhist" December 2000
I think this is sensible. For many people religion is simply apart of culture, not out of sincere faith. One who has sincere faith that Buddhism is the way should convert to Buddhism. If you are converting for a political or cultural reason this isnt meaningful. We saw this with the irish staying catholic against anglicanism because they hated the english (not because they sincerely believe catholic teachings were the real christianity), the nation of islam converting to islam since christianity was a "white mans religion" (not because they believed muhammed's path was truly correct), american conservatives doubling down on christianity because christianity is an "american religion", and the dalit movement converting to Buddhism simply because they didnt like the hindu caste system (and even altered Buddhism into thier navayana Buddhism). People who convert to Buddhism should be people with sincere reasons too. they should not convert for some political reason as what happened with the dalits or because of some cultural fad. Most christians are nominal christians who are culturally christian but dont practice anyways. Getting a bunch of new nominal Buddhists isnt going to help much of anyone.

I do think in Theravada, we should certainly try to make it so more people will convert to Buddhism out of sincere faith in its benefits of course. Someone who converts by name only for a cultural or identity reason gets little benefit from it.
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Post by sunnat »

To convert? Nowhere in the suttas is there a mention of a Buddhism to convert to. As is the nature of these things, over time assorted rituals and beliefs appended to the simple, universally applicable, practice and a ‘religion’ appears.

The Buddha taught a path to liberation. If anyone, christian, jew, muslim, satanist, a-theist, whatever-ist, practices correctly, as instructed, there will be progress to the goal. As that progress leads to Wisdom there will naturally be a letting go of rituals, beliefs and habits previously dearly clung to. A whatever-ist becomes a good whatever-ist and helps others to do the same.
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Post by DNS »

sunnat wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:34 pm To convert? Nowhere in the suttas is there a mention of a Buddhism to convert to. As is the nature of these things, over time assorted rituals and beliefs appended to the simple, universally applicable, practice and a ‘religion’ appears.
It may not have been called 'Buddhism' but there were teachings of the Buddha; the Dhamma and people asked the Buddha to be a follower of that. There are numerous Suttas where it ends with words something like "the Buddha has shown the way, turned the dark to light; from this point onwards I wish to be a follower of the Buddha, an upasaka (lay person)."

Upali lived during the time of Buddha and was the follower of another religion and went to the Buddha in order to argue with him and try to convert him. But after talking to the Buddha, he was so impressed that he decided to become a follower of the Buddha. But the Buddha said:

“Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself.

“Now I am even more pleased and satisfied when the Buddha says to me: 'Make a proper investigation first.' For if members of another religion had secured me as a disciple they would have paraded a banner all around the town saying: 'Upali has joined our religion.' But the Buddha says to me: Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself”." (Majjhima Nikaya 2.379)
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Post by sunnat »

Having made a proper investigation…

‘The Buddha taught a path to liberation. If anyone, christian, jew, muslim, satanist, a-theist, whatever-ist, practices correctly, as instructed, there will be progress to the goal. As that progress leads to Wisdom there will naturally be a letting go of rituals, beliefs and habits previously dearly clung to. A whatever-ist becomes a good whatever-ist and helps others to do the same.’

Then, In time (dependent on conditions) after practicing, investigating, the goal is neared and the fruits tasted until the goal is reached and all previously dear habits are abandoned and there is only The Dhamma left. It’s not a ‘buddhist’ Dhamma but a universal truth equally available to all.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Milinda »

I think the main point is in perspectives.

I mean from a Buddhasasana point of view one some people can be considered; a "christian buddhist" or a "muslim buddhist", but in the abrahamic religion you can be a "christian buddist".
For example Christianity, Islam or Vedic Hinduism are based on soul while Buddhism doesn't.

Also christianity and Islam they are based on "ritual of conversion".
I mean there is no ritual of conversion in Buddhism, but yes in christianity; The baptism or in Islam reciting the Shahada.
So in their point of views the people who "converted", just by joining their particular club, they have a lot more possibilities to be "saved" while the others that have not converted will end it up in a very unpleaseant fate.

So by this understanding, Abrahamic religions will always be a coercive force, while buddhism is more aristocratic and has no deep understanding of the word "conversion" and just keep it for the practise of the individual.

I think is a debate that will be lost in translation and worldviews...

Also in my opinion "converts" from abrahamic religions, they can carry baggage that is 'adharma' like believing in the soul, salvation by a superior being, continuity as "I" after Death, etc.
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Post by sunnat »

Is the arhat a Buddhist? The last process to abandon is conceit. In Christianity there is sila and there is no reason for a Christian to not practice samadhi while clinging to Christianity. Panna is the fruit of this practice. This is not complete until the complete abandoning of a self. In Christianity the peak of development is the abandoning of self to the control of a god. ‘Let go, let god’, ‘thy will, not mine’ etc. So the final abandoning for a Christian is the delusion that there is a god. Having gone towards the end of the path it is not difficult to know that it was a result of effort in practice and not a god and the goal is in reach without needing a god (and rituals). Having then reached the goal, labels like Christian or Buddhist have no meaning.
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Post by Kusala »

sunnat wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:21 pm Is the arhat a Buddhist? The last process to abandon is conceit. In Christianity there is sila and there is no reason for a Christian to not practice samadhi while clinging to Christianity. Panna is the fruit of this practice. This is not complete until the complete abandoning of a self. In Christianity the peak of development is the abandoning of self to the control of a god. ‘Let go, let god’, ‘thy will, not mine’ etc. So the final abandoning for a Christian is the delusion that there is a god. Having gone towards the end of the path it is not difficult to know that it was a result of effort in practice and not a god and the goal is in reach without needing a god (and rituals). Having then reached the goal, labels like Christian or Buddhist have no meaning.
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Post by BrokenBones »

sunnat wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:21 pm Is the arhat a Buddhist? The last process to abandon is conceit. In Christianity there is sila and there is no reason for a Christian to not practice samadhi while clinging to Christianity. Panna is the fruit of this practice. This is not complete until the complete abandoning of a self. In Christianity the peak of development is the abandoning of self to the control of a god. ‘Let go, let god’, ‘thy will, not mine’ etc. So the final abandoning for a Christian is the delusion that there is a god. Having gone towards the end of the path it is not difficult to know that it was a result of effort in practice and not a god and the goal is in reach without needing a god (and rituals). Having then reached the goal, labels like Christian or Buddhist have no meaning.
You can't even start the path never mind get near to the end without Right View. That's not to say a Christian's sila & contemplations are not of great merit.
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Re: The Dalai Lama opposed 'conversions' to Buddhism, what does Theravada thinks?

Post by Kusala »

Milinda wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:32 pm https://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-Dal ... 27075.html

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/42 ... sions.html

https://www.news24.com/news24/dalai-lam ... n-20001231

"I believe that the French, who are Christian by culture and ancestry, should remain Christian. It is better to stick to your own traditional values.... It is only if, after mature reflection, you believe that Buddhism could offer you more than Christianity that you should become a Buddhist" December 2000

Through the years the Dalai Lama opposed to Buddhist conversion, (but he may forbet that although the tibetans converted Mongols to Vajrayana Buddhism ) and even the word "Dalai Lama" is a mongolian term. :jumping:

I think it can be usefull, because well if you see many westerners who claim to be Buddhists :quote: , they don't understand at all the teachings and they mix atavistic christian believes with buddhist one such as;

-Believe that Jesus and Siddharta preached the same
-Believing in a soul, reeincarnation,
-Uknowing Anatman doctrine

For example that kind of pictures, in reality they are totaly the opposite.

Image

For that reason I think the Dalai Lama standed against proselitism and conversions (specialy on the West, due to tibetan diaspora and that Vajrayana buddhism is the most extended in Europe).

What says Theravada about 'conversions'???
I agree with Sangharakshita...

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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