Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Bundokji
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Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

I am almost certain that most of you have encountered the concept of Bardo, which is an intermediate/liminal state between death and rebirth. As far as i know, it is commonly accepted among Tibetan Buddhists, but not Theravada. If so, what are the basis for such rejection? is it only because it is not explicitly mentioned in Theravada sources? or because it contradicts with other aspects of Theravada?

Have there any known debates between Buddhists schools in relation to Bardo?

Thank you :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:50 pm Friends,

I am almost certain that most of you have encountered the concept of Bardo, which is an intermediate/liminal state between death and rebirth. As far as i know, it is commonly accepted among Tibetan Buddhists, but not Theravada. If so, what are the basis for such rejection? is it only because it is not explicitly mentioned in Theravada sources? or because it contradicts with other aspects of Theravada?

Have there any known debates between Buddhists schools in relation to Bardo?

Thank you :anjali:
I think its because such a state doesn't correspond with any of the realms in Buddhist cosmology.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by DNS »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:50 pm Have there any known debates between Buddhists schools in relation to Bardo?
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote an article (I think on access to insight) that argued an intermediate state is likely.

He quoted the Metta Sutta which speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be."

And also the Gandhabba concept, which also suggests a type of intermediate existence.

For Classical Theravadins, it is based on the Abhidhamma, which states instant rebirth.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:11 pm
Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:50 pm Friends,

I am almost certain that most of you have encountered the concept of Bardo, which is an intermediate/liminal state between death and rebirth. As far as i know, it is commonly accepted among Tibetan Buddhists, but not Theravada. If so, what are the basis for such rejection? is it only because it is not explicitly mentioned in Theravada sources? or because it contradicts with other aspects of Theravada?

Have there any known debates between Buddhists schools in relation to Bardo?

Thank you :anjali:
I think its because such a state doesn't correspond with any of the realms in Buddhist cosmology.
I was thinking along the same lines when i raised the question. In MN130 for example, there seems to be an intermediate state where questioning in relation to the deva messengers takes place before the actual torturing begins. Unless the interrogation is completely theatrical, the answers to Yama should make a difference as to whether the actual torturing will be carried on or not.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

DNS wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:41 pm
Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:50 pm Have there any known debates between Buddhists schools in relation to Bardo?
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote an article (I think on access to insight) that argued an intermediate state is likely.

He quoted the Metta Sutta which speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be."

And also the Gandhabba concept, which also suggests a type of intermediate existence.

For Classical Theravadins, it is based on the Abhidhamma, which states instant rebirth.
It is difficult to understand the classical Theravada position when an intermediate state would present a unique opportunity for being taught. On the other hand, i cannot fathom a conclusive evidence as to why this realm of experience is not an intermediate state.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Radix
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Radix »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:35 pmIt is difficult to understand the classical Theravada position when an intermediate state would present a unique opportunity for being taught. On the other hand, i cannot fathom a conclusive evidence as to why this realm of experience is not an intermediate state.
Why do the Tibetans think that the being in the intermediate state can be taught (or at least helped)? What do they think are this being's characteristics so that it can be taught and can learn?

Is the Theravadan stance that a being in the intermediate state would be similar to an infant? Ie. an infant can do neither skillful nor unskillful things; from which we might extrapolate that he cannot be taught and cannot learn how to attain a noble attainment.
This would mean that there is no use for the intermediate state.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:30 pm
Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:35 pmIt is difficult to understand the classical Theravada position when an intermediate state would present a unique opportunity for being taught. On the other hand, i cannot fathom a conclusive evidence as to why this realm of experience is not an intermediate state.
Why do the Tibetans think that the being in the intermediate state can be taught (or at least helped)? What do they think are this being's characteristics so that it can be taught and can learn?

Is the Theravadan stance that a being in the intermediate state would be similar to an infant? Ie. an infant can do neither skillful nor unskillful things; from which we might extrapolate that he cannot be taught and cannot learn how to attain a noble attainment.
This would mean that there is no use for the intermediate state.
Here is what is written on Wikipedia:
Used without qualification, "bardo" is the state of existence intermediate between two lives on earth. According to Tibetan tradition, after death and before one's next birth, when one's consciousness is not connected with a physical body, one experiences a variety of phenomena. These usually follow a particular sequence of degeneration from, just after death, the clearest experiences of reality of which one is spiritually capable, and then proceeding to terrifying hallucinations that arise from the impulses of one's previous unskillful actions. For the prepared and appropriately trained individuals, the bardo offers a state of great opportunity for liberation, since transcendental insight may arise with the direct experience of reality; for others, it can become a place of danger as the karmically created hallucinations can impel one into a less than desirable rebirth.[citation needed]

Metaphorically, bardo can be used to describe times when the usual way of life becomes suspended, as, for example, during a period of illness or during a meditation retreat. Such times can prove fruitful for spiritual progress because external constraints diminish. However, they can also present challenges because our less skillful impulses may come to the foreground, just as in the sidpa bardo.
So the analogy of infant does not seem to apply. It seems to apply only to Theravada commentary which assumes immediate rebirth, hence infancy would appear as an inescapable conclusion.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... ween_state
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Radix
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Radix »

Per Theravada doctrine, what are the things one can do or is capable of when one doesn't have a body?
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:50 pm Friends,

I am almost certain that most of you have encountered the concept of Bardo, which is an intermediate/liminal state between death and rebirth. As far as i know, it is commonly accepted among Tibetan Buddhists, but not Theravada. If so, what are the basis for such rejection? is it only because it is not explicitly mentioned in Theravada sources? or because it contradicts with other aspects of Theravada?

Have there any known debates between Buddhists schools in relation to Bardo?

Thank you :anjali:
It doesn't fit with classic Theravada - which is fine as the Buddha didnt teach classic Theravada which is wrong about several key issues.

What he did teach and what we find in the Nikayas does correspond to the existence of an intermediate state.
There is a passage in the Samyutta nikaya (don't ask me for the exact reference) where the Buddha talks about attaining awakening 'in the intermediate state' - i.e between lives.

My feeling is the Tibetans have preserved some of these lost methods of the Buddha, even if they have sometimes reconceptualized things in their own way but the fundamental practices are there which the nikayas speak of about attaining awakening in the intermediate state.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Ontheway »

There is no "Bardo" in authentic Buddhasasana. In the Third Council of Arahants, such heretical concept is banished. The details are in Kathavathu.

Nor did the Buddha claimed Gandhabba is a definite soul that exists as intermediate state. In fact, it is just like a metaphor describing a being who did not eradicate defilements and that defilements bind the being to the Samsara, hence rebirth happens. The metaphor "entered the womb..." is just a storytelling technique to describe the establishment of consciousness in that instance where the egg was fertilised by a sperm. This metaphor is famous even among the nonBuddhists sectarians.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by asahi »

Gandhabba in the Bardo state is an intermediate state where the temporary existence of five aggregates occurs for very short time frame .
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:30 pm
Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:35 pmIt is difficult to understand the classical Theravada position when an intermediate state would present a unique opportunity for being taught. On the other hand, i cannot fathom a conclusive evidence as to why this realm of experience is not an intermediate state.
Why do the Tibetans think that the being in the intermediate state can be taught (or at least helped)? What do they think are this being's characteristics so that it can be taught and can learn?
It is a physical being comprised of airy material that wanders through the airs of the atmosphere experiencing Buddhic or demonic visions, vaguely similar to the so-called "aerial tollhouses" of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I've only known Tibetans and some varieties of Japanese esotericists to double-down on the gandharva being physical.
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Radix »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:17 am
Radix wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:30 pmWhy do the Tibetans think that the being in the intermediate state can be taught (or at least helped)? What do they think are this being's characteristics so that it can be taught and can learn?
It is a physical being comprised of airy material that wanders through the airs of the atmosphere experiencing Buddhic or demonic visions, vaguely similar to the so-called "aerial tollhouses" of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I've only known Tibetans and some varieties of Japanese esotericists to double-down on the gandharva being physical.
My question is how these beings (that don't have ordinary bodies) can learn or be helped. They must still have the senses, volition, memory, no?


(I didn't know about aerial toll houses. Interesting.)
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

Radix wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:00 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:17 am
Radix wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:30 pmWhy do the Tibetans think that the being in the intermediate state can be taught (or at least helped)? What do they think are this being's characteristics so that it can be taught and can learn?
It is a physical being comprised of airy material that wanders through the airs of the atmosphere experiencing Buddhic or demonic visions, vaguely similar to the so-called "aerial tollhouses" of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I've only known Tibetans and some varieties of Japanese esotericists to double-down on the gandharva being physical.
My question is how these beings (that don't have ordinary bodies) can learn or be helped. They must still have the senses, volition, memory, no?


(I didn't know about aerial toll houses. Interesting.)
There are assemblies of Buddhas in the heavens, in what moderns know as the upper atmosphere, supposedly, and these heavenly Tathāgatas are surrounded by bodhisattvasaṃghas comprised of Buddhist devas, and these instruct gandharvas with sufficient merit alongside the devas. The gandharvas can see the Buddhas with their physical eyes and hear them preach with their physical ears, supposedly. The physical gandharva has all five aggregates and six senses. The immaterial gandharva is of only four aggregates and only has the manas and no kāya, ear, eye, etc.

Even in the Pāli tradition, the Buddha teaches the devas in the heavens (such as when he taught them the Abhidhamma), but classical Theravāda doesn't believe that they also teach intermediate beings in the heavens.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Bundokji
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Re: Bardo and Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:29 am There are assemblies of Buddhas in the heavens, in what moderns know as the upper atmosphere, supposedly, and these heavenly Tathāgatas are surrounded by bodhisattvasaṃghas comprised of Buddhist devas, and these instruct gandharvas with sufficient merit alongside the devas. The gandharvas can see the Buddhas with their physical eyes and hear them preach with their physical ears, supposedly. The physical gandharva has all five aggregates and six senses. The immaterial gandharva is of only four aggregates and only has the manas and no kāya, ear, eye, etc.

Even in the Pāli tradition, the Buddha teaches the devas in the heavens (such as when he taught them the Abhidhamma), but classical Theravāda doesn't believe that they also teach intermediate beings in the heavens.
The Abrahamic version of the intermediate state is made possible by giving the intellect and ideas a special status, equivalent to the "mind" which can function independently from the body. The life in the tomb is an intermediate state between death and the judgement day (resurrection) where actions, both good and bad, are somehow replayed to the mind of the dead before actual punishment/reward takes place. It is interesting that a tomb is similar to a womb, serving as a cocoon of some sort.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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