Hi Mikenz,
Rather, it seems to me simpler to see the source text as not pointing to different sets of things, but two different perspectives on the same thing. The “bare” aggregates show “what is”, while the “grasping aggregates” show how grasping to “what is” leads to suffering.
...
Thus the question of whether the “bare” aggregates refer to an arahant does not even come up: that’s not what the Sutta is about.
Hi Mikenz,
Thanks for the paper that was very interesting and connected some dots here. I think that Sujato makes a good job here in making clear that the aggregate, say of a woman, is the same and it is the clinging that can be there or not and how the later traditional analysis is hard to subscribe. Given that I've passed all SN22 and most of SA in search of further understanding, I will add something more, unfortunately I've taken annotations and sutta quotes that I've lost and I will not have time to rebuild everything
This is also a partial response to other themes expressed in this topic since I have no more time left to dig them in detail.
-
As a teaching device Aggregates are all of our experience, Clinging-aggregates are the parts of experience that are tainted
by us by greed, aversion and avijja. The two almost coincide for the worlding since identity, me and mines are created almost everywhere in our experience: clinging-aggregates are deeply connected to identity and "I am".
- When we say "the aggregates
are Dukkha" we must understand in which sense and
why there's a distinction for teaching purpose. The clinging-aggregate distinction helps us to understand that the aggregates are like
fire. They are fire, but to be Dukkha we must put our hand on them, we must adhere to them, searching delight in them and cling to them. Or, alternative, we put our hand and they bite us in return.
“One who does not seek delight in form … in consciousness does not seek delight in suffering. One who does not seek delight in suffering, I say, is freed from suffering.”
“So too, bhikkhus, form is not yours … consciousness is not yours: abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness.”
One who fully understands form … and consciousness is freed from form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.”
“And, bhikkhus, from what are sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair born? How are they produced? Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. That form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.
“He regards feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That consciousness of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of consciousness, there arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.
“But, bhikkhus, when one has understood the impermanence of form, its change, fading away, and cessation, and when one sees as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘In the past and also now all form is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change,’ then sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair are abandoned. With their abandonment, one does not become agitated. Being unagitated, one dwells happily. A bhikkhu who dwells happily is said to be quenched in that respect.
“When one has understood the impermanence of feeling … of perception … of volitional formations … of consciousness, its change, fading away, and cessation, and when one sees as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘In the past and also now all consciousness is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change,’ then sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair are abandoned. With their abandonment, one does not become agitated. Being unagitated, one dwells happily. A bhikkhu who dwells happily is said to be quenched in that respect.”
“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity? Here, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple … does not regard form as self … nor feeling as self … nor perception as self … nor volitional formations as self … nor consciousness as self … nor self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the cessation of identity. When it is said, ‘The way leading to the cessation of identity,’ the meaning here is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering.”
- It is the clinging-aggregates teaching that tells us that
there's an escape that you can do now. In fact, to consider the aggregates as Dukkha even when we don't adhere is to go
beyond the scope of the teaching and to see Dukkha even when we have realized the escape since when we don't adhere, there's nothing that can touch us. It's like saying that we are burning alive nonethless we are not on fire just because there's a fire near us (or if you prefer suffer because some leaves are burned near us like in the Jeta's grove).
“The five aggregates are truly burdens,
The burden-carrier is the person.
Taking up the burden is suffering in the world,
Laying the burden down is blissful.
Having laid the heavy burden down
Without taking up another burden,
Having drawn out craving with its root,
One is free from hunger, fully quenched.”
- This is the point of having "clinging-aggregates" and not simply aggregates in the first noble truth. The point is that we can see by ourselves the end of suffering by the diminishing (there's a sutta about C.A. reduction too) of the number of clinging-aggregates (so, the aggregates
that are tainted by our own doing) and by the single removal of clinging from an aggregate.
Every aggregate is potential Dukkha if we take it as mine, every aggregate is fire and potentially murderos. But we have to add a pinch of clinging to them, it is not the mere experience of it being Dukkha else the Arahant would not be happy. By making an analogy, we have to invite the killer to enter. If it is ouside of the building, we are safe and that is not Dukkha even if we look at it from the window.
“And what, bhikkhus, is happiness more spiritual than the spiritual? When a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed reviews his mind liberated from lust, liberated from hatred, liberated from delusion, there arises happiness. This is called happiness more spiritual than the spiritual.
- That is why neutral-feelings are the
best pleasure and fourth jhana is so important to get right knowledge, because the only drawback is that they end, a thing that as we have seen,
is again a problem only for those that clings. That doesn't mean that even fourth jhana loses his "being fire" attribute, in fact the drawbacks of fourth jhana must be known as well as the escape (non-clinging).
“What is pleasant and what is painful in each of the three feelings?”
“Pleasant feeling is pleasant when it remains and painful when it perishes. Painful feeling is painful when it remains and pleasant when it perishes. Neutral feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge, and painful when there is ignorance.”
“What underlying tendencies underlie each of the three feelings?”
“The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency for repulsion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency for ignorance underlies neutral feeling.”
“Do these underlying tendencies always underlie these feelings?”
“No, they do not.”
“What should be given up in regard to each of these three feelings?”
“The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling.”
“And how, bhikkhus, is there nonagitation through nonclinging? Here, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple, who is a seer of the noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who is a seer of superior persons and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. That form of his changes and alters. Despite the change and alteration of form, his consciousness does not become preoccupied with the change of form. No agitation and constellation of mental states born of preoccupation with the change of form remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not frightened, distressed, or anxious, and through nonclinging he does not become agitated.
“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that there is nonagitation through nonclinging.”
- So to see the aggregates without clinging as Dukkha is to miss the point of the path that can have behind a subtle aversion from the aggregates (experience) itself, hoping to terminate them instead of the clinging. Another key point is that innumerable times we find "clinging-aggregates" (and not aggregates ofc)
equated as
identity. That should give some light also in which way the Arahant can contemplate the "clinging-aggregates", by see the allure, drawbacks and escape of identity, so by actually contemplate the allure he
renounced, the drawbacks of what
he doesn't risk to experience anymore and the blissful escape
he found and in which he abodes. This would open a digression about existence, birth, etc.. but there's no time for me.
- Another key point is in the Yamaka sutta:
“He becomes engaged with form, clings to it, and takes a stand upon it as ‘my self.’ He becomes engaged with feeling … with perception … with volitional formations … with consciousness, clings to it, and takes a stand upon it as ‘my self.’ These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he becomes engaged and to which he clings, lead to his harm and suffering for a long time.
“He understands as it really is conditioned form as ‘conditioned form’ … conditioned consciousness as ‘conditioned consciousness. ’
“He understands as it really is murderous form as ‘murderous form’ … murderous consciousness as ‘murderous consciousness.’
“He does not become engaged with form, cling to it, and take a stand upon it as ‘my self.’ He does not become engaged with feeling … with perception … with volitional formations … with consciousness, cling to it, and take a stand upon it as ‘my self.’ These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he does not become engaged and to which he does not cling, lead to his welfare and happiness for a long time.”
We can say that "these same five aggregates of clinging" can bring happiness if not clung to. Again to counter that view that there's Dukkha even when the escape is found (the only except is the painful bodily feelings
of the body, which is past kamma and cannot be avoided, but it is not there all the time and arahants can even kill themselves if it is unbearable)
What are the aggregates? All material form in the past, future, or present, inward or outward, gross or subtle, excellent or inferior, far
or near, is all collectively called the aggregate of material form; and similarly, feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness: all are
collectively called the aggregate of feeling, of perception, of activities, and of consciousness. These are called the aggregates.
What are the aggregates with attachment? If material form is accompanied by influxes, is [associated with] attachment; if that
form, in the past, future, or present, gives rise to sensual desire, anger, ignorance, and various other distressing mental phenomena;
and similarly for feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness; these are called the aggregates with attachment.
This really explains what the liberation of the Buddha entails and what doesn't. We don't have to liberate ourselves from the aggregates, but from identity and attachment to them so
that dukkha is seen as not arising from them and we can see the cessation of Dukkha in action and experience happiness (The arahant is happy) and welfare
in the midst of impermanence due to non-attachment and the cessation of identity. If we think that the aggregates are Dukkha even without attachment, we go against the teachings failing to see the escape and the happiness that we can experience. In brief, the clinging-aggregates are Dukkha and not the aggregates per se, since there's the escape from all the fire and it is visible, personally knowable by the wise. From DN9:
"I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the gross acquisition of a self… the mind-made acquisition of a self… the formless acquisition of a self such that, when you practice it, defiling mental qualities will be abandoned, bright mental qualities will grow, and you will enter & remain in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for yourself in the here & now. If the thought should occur to you that, when defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, one's abiding (note: so one experience) is stressful/painful, you should not see it in that way. When defiling mental qualities are abandoned and bright mental qualities have grown, and one enters & remains in the culmination & abundance of discernment, having known & realized it for oneself in the here & now, there is joy, rapture, serenity, mindfulness, alertness, and a pleasant/happy abiding."
- As a side-note: Buddhadasa makes three distinctions: "mere" aggregates (totality of experience), clinging-aggregates and "pure" aggregates (aggregates that were clung to and now are no more clung to)
btw one word is important here: for him the "pure aggregates" are what
remains (he talks a little and then choose to use this verb instead) after the removal of clinging. As a description, I dunno, but as a teaching that I think is very in-line with the suttas. The very same "clinging-aggregates" not clung to, leads to welfare and happiness.
'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. When one is free from passion… for feeling… for perception… for fabrications… When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair.
- To make my case one last time, here we can see that the aggregates can be stressful only if clung to:
[The Buddha:] "Mahāli, if form were exclusively stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings would not be infatuated with form. But because form is also pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings are infatuated with form. Through infatuation, they are captivated. Through captivation, they are defiled. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the defilement of beings (note: and, it should be clear now, even of their suffering). And this is how beings are defiled with cause, with requisite condition.
"If feeling were exclusively stressful…
"If perception were exclusively stressful…
"If fabrications were exclusively stressful…
"If consciousness were exclusively stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings would not be infatuated with consciousness. But because consciousness is also pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings are infatuated with consciousness. Through infatuation, they are captivated. Through captivation, they are defiled. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the defilement of beings. And this is how beings are defiled with cause, with requisite condition."
"And what, lord, is the cause, what the requisite condition, for the purification of beings? How are beings purified with cause, with requisite condition?"
"Mahāli, if form were exclusively pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings would not be disenchanted with form. But because form is also stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings are disenchanted with form. Through disenchantment, they grow dispassionate. Through dispassion, they are purified. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the purification of beings. And this is how beings are purified with cause, with requisite condition.
Here we have the Arahant, a purified being (I think that this is the passage Buddhadasa entails), that experience the aggregates without infatuation and without being held captive from them and, by observing the clinging-aggregates actually makes himself happy as in the attending-sutta quoted by you. The aggregates are the same, the danger is there as usual, but the Dukkha is cessated and cannot arise in the future because the escape
is practiced even while they are still there, making us pure and safe and without the Dukkha of the first noble truth
With Metta!