Alternatively -
Kasina in the sutta, is not referring to a physical object viewable by organic eyes.
Kasina refers to the attributes of formless spheres.
It is the formless we take high regards, see as beautiful with metta.
Although I don't know a physcial disc can induce into formless attainment, but I am certain it is not the only way.
As Buddha recommends, Satipatthan would do.
Reason is that Formless is attainment awards to a mind of purification.
If a mind is cleansed enough via Satipathana (or other themes), there is no reason he would be denied of a sphere of peace.
Can these be Answered by Suttas Alone?
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Re: Can these be Answered by Suttas Alone?
OP's question is too long to answer.
Perhaps you should post them as individual questions.
At glance, I would say you find answers to them in the Sutta or commentaries.
Perhaps you should post them as individual questions.
At glance, I would say you find answers to them in the Sutta or commentaries.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
The true knowing of answers arises due to in-sight meditation practice (contemplation) ‘by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful sense-base-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant sense-base-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge’.
There are a large number of path-walkers, all at different stages of their own path depending on unique conditions applicable and known by them only. However if one practices as one understands, having heard The Dhamma, facing in the right direction ( which becomes known by practice ) steps in the right direction can be taken.
This is why a couple of instructions are universal and help to establish one in the right direction. Namely the oft quoted Kalamas instruction re knowing and the oft stated by The Blessed One ‘path good in the beginning [for the beginner, whoever, wherever, whenever you are] good in the middle, and good in the end. Throughout this journey, that which is known for each unique pathwalker is constantly changing. Some of what is known to be true before starting is soon abandoned, and so on until the end. It is more about finding what is true for you rather than blindly adopting another path walkers truth. The way one walks is far more important than particular (transitory) truths.
There are a large number of path-walkers, all at different stages of their own path depending on unique conditions applicable and known by them only. However if one practices as one understands, having heard The Dhamma, facing in the right direction ( which becomes known by practice ) steps in the right direction can be taken.
This is why a couple of instructions are universal and help to establish one in the right direction. Namely the oft quoted Kalamas instruction re knowing and the oft stated by The Blessed One ‘path good in the beginning [for the beginner, whoever, wherever, whenever you are] good in the middle, and good in the end. Throughout this journey, that which is known for each unique pathwalker is constantly changing. Some of what is known to be true before starting is soon abandoned, and so on until the end. It is more about finding what is true for you rather than blindly adopting another path walkers truth. The way one walks is far more important than particular (transitory) truths.
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Re: Can these be Answered by Suttas Alone?
They cannot be answered by suttas alone and there's really only a few possible explanations for it.
1. The Buddha did teach them but the records of him teaching them in detail were lost (not that unlikely given the track record of historical record keeping in the preindustrial era). But instructions/details were preserved in the commentaries
2. The Buddha didn't teach them and some ppl decided it'd be fun to play a joke on ppl in the future by adding them, even tho they appear even in the self-proclaimed "Early Buddhist texts". So if that was the case even the EBTs aren't accurate by their own definition of what an EBT is since things like kasina and the bases of mastery are mentioned in places like the four Nikayas. (Least likely scenario I'd say)
3. It was well known in ancient India at the time so the Buddha didn't feel a need to elaborate on how to actually do certain things. Similar to how he mentions, "why are you asking if there are gods? It's clearly observable there are gods". Which explains why he didn't give actual instructions but the early-ish commentators did. (Possible but not that likely IMHO)
4. The Buddha did teach them in some hidden way that only those with high attainments could understand. Commentators simply explained it for us less spiritually developed folk.
5. The Buddha didn't teach them himself but he deferred the specifics of these things to be taught by his chief disciples like sariputta and moggallana as they were training up new disciples as it's stated in the suttas that they did that routinely but we have very few records of it. And it's not like the few times it's recorded are the only times they ever taught or trained disciples. And they just never bothered to include that in the first council recitation since it was relatively common knowledge or something like that.
1. The Buddha did teach them but the records of him teaching them in detail were lost (not that unlikely given the track record of historical record keeping in the preindustrial era). But instructions/details were preserved in the commentaries
2. The Buddha didn't teach them and some ppl decided it'd be fun to play a joke on ppl in the future by adding them, even tho they appear even in the self-proclaimed "Early Buddhist texts". So if that was the case even the EBTs aren't accurate by their own definition of what an EBT is since things like kasina and the bases of mastery are mentioned in places like the four Nikayas. (Least likely scenario I'd say)
3. It was well known in ancient India at the time so the Buddha didn't feel a need to elaborate on how to actually do certain things. Similar to how he mentions, "why are you asking if there are gods? It's clearly observable there are gods". Which explains why he didn't give actual instructions but the early-ish commentators did. (Possible but not that likely IMHO)
4. The Buddha did teach them in some hidden way that only those with high attainments could understand. Commentators simply explained it for us less spiritually developed folk.
5. The Buddha didn't teach them himself but he deferred the specifics of these things to be taught by his chief disciples like sariputta and moggallana as they were training up new disciples as it's stated in the suttas that they did that routinely but we have very few records of it. And it's not like the few times it's recorded are the only times they ever taught or trained disciples. And they just never bothered to include that in the first council recitation since it was relatively common knowledge or something like that.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Re: Can these be Answered by Suttas Alone?
In the processes of oral transmission , they all needs the one or someone who pass down the teachings together with understanding the meaning in it . But not everyone are well-versed in the teachings .
No bashing No gossiping
Re: Can these be Answered by Suttas Alone?
6. Some of the instructions are in the suttas, we just overlook and/or overcomplicate them.TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:37 pm They cannot be answered by suttas alone and there's really only a few possible explanations for it.
...
When it comes to Kasinas,
a) What exactly does the word "Kasina" mean? Probably people who spoke the native language would be more familiar with it (because they exactly knew what the term meant) than us.
b) It is possible to re construe the possible brief instruction from the suttas. Or take a reasoned guess about it based from similar topics.
IMHO.
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Re: Can these be Answered by Suttas Alone?
I feel that that is a mixture of my points 3 and 4 rather than a seperate possibility. But i guess its reasonable on its own too i suppose.Alex123 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:40 pm6. Some of the instructions are in the suttas, we just overlook and/or overcomplicate them.TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:37 pm They cannot be answered by suttas alone and there's really only a few possible explanations for it.
...
When it comes to Kasinas,
a) What exactly does the word "Kasina" mean? Probably people who spoke the native language would be more familiar with it (because they exactly knew what the term meant) than us.
b) It is possible to re construe the possible brief instruction from the suttas. Or take a reasoned guess about it based from similar topics.
IMHO.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta