arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:39 am I just stop reading until here.
i can see you don't read..
Joe.c wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:39 am There is no development of mind for an arahant anymore.
if you had read a little bit further then you have noticed the sutta quote what said,
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.11/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, .. —the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness.
it says perfected one who has ended defilements there is still the development and cultivation of immersion.. you wouldn't have needed to waste your time with the things you typed about it if had read..
Joe.c wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:39 am Please answer this first: Can an infant cry without reason? If they can cry alot, how can they be free from sensual pleasure or other feelings?
So, why don't you read a sutta?
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sensual pleasures’, so how could desire for sensual pleasures possibly arise in them?
I gather the mind what could comprehend the dhamma is dormant for the infant, unless that infant is aware and mindful, there wouldn't be crying too.
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

I read those.

But your understanding is different. 😅

Baby still experience senses. The only problem is they don't know how to conceptualize it due to brain +mind function. That is what Buddha refer too.

If you don't trust me. Try to pinch a baby, see whether they right away cry.

But try to pinch an arahant (if you can find one), they will not blink even one bit.

There is no more development for an arahant. Job is done. It is mainly maintaining it until end of life. The text sometimes is a repetition, you need to understand where and why it is being used.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:01 am I read those.

But your understanding is different. 😅

Baby still experience senses. The only problem is they don't know how to conceptualize it due to brain +mind function. That is what Buddha refer too.

If you don't trust me. Try to pinch a baby, see whether they right away cry.

But try to pinch an arahant (if you can find one), they will not blink even one bit.
your claim about arhant having no asava is taught based on that same list of defilements,
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “I remember the lower fetters taught by the Buddha as follows:
identity view,
doubt,
misapprehension of precepts and observances,
sensual desire,
and ill will.
That’s how I remember the five lower fetters taught by the Buddha.”
buddha replies,
wrote:“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way?
Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant?
How buddha is teaching these,
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Ānanda, take an unlearned ordinary person ..
..
Their heart is overcome and mired in identity view,
and they don’t truly understand the escape from identity view that has arisen.
That identity view is reinforced in them, not eliminated: it is a lower fetter.
In sum,
For an infant, the identity view doesn't arise*, there is no identity view to reinforce in oneself, and thus there is no lower fetter.
---
*"For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?" -mn64
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:01 am There is no more development for an arahant. Job is done. It is mainly maintaining it until end of life. The text sometimes is a repetition, you need to understand where and why it is being used.
hmm
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.10/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Any monk or nun who meditates with their mind firmly established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation can expect to
Yo hi koci, bhaginiyo, bhikkhu vā bhikkhunī vā catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu suppatiṭṭhitacitto viharati, tassetaṁ pāṭikaṅkhaṁ:
realize a higher distinction than they had before.”
‘uḷāraṁ pubbenāparaṁ visesaṁ sañjānissatī’”ti.
might you be satisfied with the 24/7 jhana, but that is not the end.
wrote:And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
Sukhino cittaṁ samādhiyati.
Then they reflect:
So iti paṭisañcikkhati:
‘I have accomplished the goal for which I directed my mind.
‘yassa khvāhaṁ atthāya cittaṁ paṇidahiṁ, so me attho abhinipphanno.
Let me now pull back.’
Handa dāni paṭisaṁharāmī’ti.
They pull back, and neither place the mind nor keep it connected.
So paṭisaṁharati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti.
..
And they understand: ‘Over a period of time it’s unconstricted, freed, and undirected.’
Atha pacchāpure ‘asaṅkhittaṁ vimuttaṁ appaṇihitan’ti pajānāti.
User avatar
zerotime
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by zerotime »

auto wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:13 pm Quote fest but these above support the idea that Bahiya still need further training regards to the internal(ajjhattaṁ),
standard jhana here,
in the bizarre recent effort to jhanitize every teaching taught by the Buddha, the Bahiya Sutta is a typical victim. It is interesting checking how most of people bypass the case of Malunkyaputta, who received exactly the same teaching than Bahiya.

"Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I have found his absence in many papers analyzing the case of Bahiya, including V.Analayo and Piya Tan. Strange.

The Malunkyaputta Sutta SN 35.95 is an expansion of the Bahiya teaching, and very useful to understand better the Bahiya Sutta. Also because the doubt about the arhanthood by means wisdom is finally clarified:
"Then Ven. Malunkyaputta, having been admonished by the admonishment from the Blessed One, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right side, and left. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Malunkyaputta became another one of the arahants."
maybe sometime you have read discussions and papers investigating what was exactly the practice followed by Bahiya. That's funny or difficult to understand, because in the SN 35.95 it is explained in quite detail: :shrug:
"I understand in detail, lord, the meaning of what the Blessed One has said in brief:


Seeing a form
— mindfulness lapsed —
attending
to the theme of 'endearing,'
impassioned in mind,
one feels
and remains fastened there.
One's feelings, born of the form,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance
injure one's mind.
Thus amassing stress,
one is said to be far from Unbinding.

Hearing a sound...
Smelling an aroma...
Tasting a flavor...
Touching a tactile sensation...

Knowing an idea
— mindfulness lapsed —
attending
to the theme of 'endearing,'
impassioned in mind,
one feels
and remains fastened there.
One's feelings, born of the idea,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance
injure one's mind.
Thus amassing stress,
one is said to be far from Unbinding.

Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
While one is seeing a form
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding.

Not impassioned with sounds...
Not impassioned with aromas...
Not impassioned with flavors...
Not impassioned with tactile sensations...

Not impassioned with ideas
— knowing an idea with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
While one is knowing an idea
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding.
"It's in this way, lord, that I understand in detail the meaning of what the Blessed One said in brief."

"Good, Malunkyaputta. Very good. It's good that you understand in detail this way the meaning of what I said in brief."
following that teaching, Malunkyaputta and Bahiya,without following a practice of jhanas, both become arhants.

This is what the Early Buddhist Texts shows
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:29 pm might you be satisfied with the 24/7 jhana, but that is not the end.
Good luck.

As I said, 24/7 jhana will either lead you to be non returner (if there is leftover) or an arahant here and now. Jhana is needed for stopping asava(s) and arise of wisdom. But of course, you need to enter the stream first, check, and proved all the statements in Sutta.

If one can't let go the jhana or dhamma at end of life, one will arise spontaneously in Suddhavasa or other brahma realm. If one is done, then no more.

All can be proven in Sutta here and now, problem is have you developed the faculties by following the EXACT Steps. One can't even miss any steps on N8FP.

Btw, don't think one can by pass all the heavens (even sensual realm heaven). It is not easy, you need to have direct knowledge from personal experience to transcend them.
you wrote:They pull back, and neither place the mind nor keep it connected.
This is when the jhana is becoming automatic for 24/7. No need put a force, it is automatically in jhana all the time. But doesn't mean you keep checking it. Only when one ask, they will check and tell you which jhana they are in.
above wrote:without following a practice of jhanas, both become arhants.
This is misunderstanding. Both have samma samadhi (jhana). Problem in text, it is shorten. Both analyze their experiences and have the knowledge/ wisdom.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
User avatar
zerotime
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by zerotime »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 1:07 am This is misunderstanding. Both have samma samadhi (jhana). Problem in text, it is shorten. Both analyze their experiences and have the knowledge/ wisdom.
Malunkyaputta was the famous disciple of the unanswered questions to the Buddha and also the poisoned arrow simile.

He spent the years without being focused in any path of progress. Instead, he requested answers for endless rational questions, on the contrary he threatened with leaving the Order. In fact he leaved for a time.

He seemed a modern man of our times, remembers what we can find in the modern internet boards.
Only at the end of his life, with the perspective of death and without having acquiring progress, he returned to the Buddha, who gave him the teaching that we can read in the Sutta. With that focus he acquired progress until became an arhant.

The Therigata verses attributed to him, also shows the same approach:

https://suttafriends.org/sutta/thag16-5/

if you investigate the texts about this disciple, you will check how there is no misunderstanding. He was not engaged in any cultivation of jhanas.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps the answer to OP question is given here,

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

zerotime wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:00 pm https://suttafriends.org/sutta/thag16-5/
if you investigate the texts about this disciple, you will check how there is no misunderstanding. He was not engaged in any cultivation of jhanas.
Well. Did you see the verses? He managed to transcend & free from 6 senses. By developing the Sati, there will be samadhi. No sati/samadhi means no nibbana.
Thag 16.5 wrote:Through the way he know the experiences and the way he associates with that feeling, all come to an end, there is no accumulating. That is how he acts with Sati. For one who abandon dukkha in this way, Nibbāna is said to be close by.
Why people think that Sati and samadhi are the opposite. I just don't understand.

I think most people haven't even mastered the 5 precepts for 24/7 and realized the fruit of 5 precepts development.

Btw, Samma vayama, samma sati and samma samadhi are going hand in hand.
If one say that they have sati, but there is NO samadhi. This means they probably don't understand the N8FP at all.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

zerotime wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:31 pm ..
What grade of arhant? bahiya got his mind freed yes, but it is not the best kind of arhant. I didn't say bahiya isn't arhant on a small, disciple scale thus i speculate that in a bigger scale his attainment is anagami one.

The quote you posted,
wrote:Seeing a form
— mindfulness lapsed —
attending
to the theme of 'endearing,'
..
Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
corresponds with this,
https://suttacentral.net/mn138/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And how is consciousness scattered and diffused externally?
Take a mendicant who sees a sight with their eyes. Their consciousness follows after the features of that sight, tied, attached, and fettered to gratification in its features. So their consciousness is said to be scattered and diffused externally.
..
And how is consciousness not scattered and diffused externally?
Kathañcāvuso, bahiddhā viññāṇaṁ avikkhittaṁ avisaṭanti vuccati?
Take a mendicant who sees a sight with their eyes. Their consciousness doesn’t follow after the features of that sight, and is not tied, attached, and fettered to gratification in its features. So their consciousness is said to be not scattered and diffused externally.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhuno cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā na rūpanimittānusāri viññāṇaṁ hoti, na rūpanimittassādagadhitaṁ na rūpanimittassādavinibandhaṁ na rūpanimittassādasaṁyojanasaṁyuttaṁ bahiddhā viññāṇaṁ avikkhittaṁ avisaṭanti vuccati.
i agree it is pre-jhana thing.
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 1:07 am
auto wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:29 pm might you be satisfied with the 24/7 jhana, but that is not the end.
Good luck.

As I said, 24/7 jhana will either lead you to be non returner (if there is leftover) or an arahant here and now. Jhana is needed for stopping asava(s) and arise of wisdom. But of course, you need to enter the stream first, check, and proved all the statements in Sutta.

If one can't let go the jhana or dhamma at end of life, one will arise spontaneously in Suddhavasa or other brahma realm. If one is done, then no more.
better to talk directly about the terms you use like "one is done". Done with what?
you can find sutta what says done with human existence, thus one still has god existences which means jhana,
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Strive and cut the stream!
“Chinda sotaṁ parakkamma,
Dispel sensual pleasures, brahmin.
kāme panuda brāhmaṇa;
A sage who doesn’t give up sensual pleasures
Nappahāya munī kāme,
is not reborn in a unified state.
nekattamupapajjati.

If one is to do what should be done,
Kayirā ce kayirāthenaṁ,
..
take this sutta in comparison to the above. It says no rebirth desire(hope) who have given up sensual desire. So, someone with no desire to reborn will reborn in an unified state.
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.5/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“This is what should be done by a brahmin:
“Karaṇīyametaṁ brāhmaṇena,
unrelenting striving.
Padhānaṁ akilāsunā;
Then, with the giving up of sensual pleasures,
Kāmānaṁ vippahānena,
they won’t hope to be reborn.”
Na tenāsīsate bhavan”ti.

“The brahmin has nothing left to do,”
“Natthi kiccaṁ brāhmaṇassa,
..
The 'nothing more to be done' is just the beginning clause for doing jhana.
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:23 am Perhaps the answer to OP question is given here,
flame goes out.. well yeah never heard it before..
read the above post,
viewtopic.php?p=705692#p705692
and explain what is written in these quotes and see that these won't mean what you mean by flame goes out(as the end goal, it is a beginning for to attain jhana).
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:41 pm better to talk directly about the terms you use like "one is done". Done with what?
you can find sutta what says done with human existence, thus one still has god existences which means jhana,
Done will all developments. The faculties is fully developed. Wisdom is matured completely. The mind is completely free and transcend the 6 senses.

I can go on and on, but you will never satisfy. Do you know why? Because your mind and possibly body is still moving all over the places.

So start maintaining precepts 24/7 and continue to hear only true dhamma to anchor your body and mind first. But unless one can analyze your whole experience, it will be difficult to do it your ownself.

This is why to understand the true dhamma can't be done with just reading a sutta or a book. It is total experience changes.

Btw on Bahiya:
ud 1.10 wrote:Then a deity who was a former relative of Bāhiya, having compassion and wanting what’s best for him, approached him and said:

“Bāhiya, you’re not a perfected one, nor on the path to perfection.
When one can converse with Deva, it is very high probability they have high level of faculties development. Deity won't come until one has perfected morality first, then samadhi (even it is a wrong samadhi).
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:05 pm The mind is completely free and transcend the 6 senses.
in sutta it is 5 senses. and it is not final attainment.
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?”
Joe.c wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:05 pm Done will all developments. The faculties is fully developed.
not according to the suttas i posted, but thanks for being blunt
Joe.c wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:05 pm This is why to understand the true dhamma can't be done with just reading a sutta or a book. It is total experience changes.
you mean the suttas i posted are not true?

We can talk about practice if you want?
Joe.c
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:44 pm in sutta it is 5 senses. and it is not final attainment.
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?”
An arahant or even any ariya can describe the path in any sort of form.

Free of 5 senses = jhana. Then use the jhana to understand the mind. You need to be in jhana all the time to understand the mind. When one is in jhana all the time, one can stop all asava(s). Wisdom will mature. Then completely free from the mind too due to wisdom. If not then go to sannavedayitanirodha too, then one can be free both way.

Stop all asava(s), one can be freed from dukkhas and all the DO will stop to function here and now. You can prove it now.

Anyway it is difficult to grasp. Especially try to transcend from senses. This is why one needs to check from time to time especially now. No one can do it for you.
Joe.c wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:05 pm you mean the suttas i posted are not true?
Sutta only describes one part of certain person experience. You won't get the complete picture. You need to look at the totality of it. This is why you need to analyze your own experience and refer back to sutta and other ariya experience.

This is not easy task and can be very confusing for most people.

Because one part look contradicting other part. In fact they are not, it depends on which part of the path are you on.
you wrote: We can talk about practice if you want?
I don't care about other people practice. It is each personal problem. If they think they are good, then i'm good as well. 😁
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Post Reply