What experiences Nirvana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
riceandcashews
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by riceandcashews »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:23 am
riceandcashews wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:19 am I actually agree with you and personally think it is helpful to describe the deathless as consciousness without feature or surface
That’s funny because I gave up anyone agreeing with me
I cannot get a read on your comment. Are you trying to say you don't care if people agree with you or disagree with you? Or are you saying you're surprised because you didn't think anyone agreed with you? I'm genuinely unclear in the meaning of your comment. You have no other comment on what I said to you at all and its relevance to this conversation?
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12840
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

riceandcashews wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:27 am I cannot get a read on your comment. … You have no other comment
My eyes are bloodshot, tired of debate, at least you are not misguided
riceandcashews
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by riceandcashews »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:37 am
riceandcashews wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:27 am I cannot get a read on your comment. … You have no other comment
My eyes are bloodshot, tired of debate, at least you are not misguided
Probably should cool down on the cappuccinos if your eyes are bloodshot :D
skandha
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:38 am

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by skandha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:39 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:34 pm Not that either, nor existing.
It’s not nothing
Correct. Nor is it something.
I would argue that nirvana is something, a dhamma. The one and only dhamma that is unconditioned.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22286
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

skandha wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:39 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:35 pm

It’s not nothing
Correct. Nor is it something.
I would argue that nirvana is something, a dhamma. The one and only dhamma that is unconditioned.
If nibbāna were a thing then it would either arise and then cease, or it would remain still, but none of those apply to nibbāna. If nibbāna were a thing then it would be something arrived at, something entered into, but those do not apply. Nibbāna is here, right now in sense experience, before our eyes. Before his awakening Venerable Ānanda tried and tried all night to awaken, but to no avail. Then, when he laid down his head to sleep, he awakened. He totally let go.

Then he addressed the Buddha in verse:

“While walking, ascetic, you say ‘I’ve stopped.’
And I have stopped, but you tell me I’ve not.
I’m asking you this, ascetic:
how is it you’ve stopped and I have not?”

“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped—
I’ve laid aside violence towards all creatures.
But you can’t stop yourself from harming living creatures;
that’s why I’ve stopped, but you have not.”


- MN 86

“Neither standing nor swimming, sir, I crossed the flood.”

“But in what way did you cross the flood neither standing nor swimming?”

“When I stood still, I went under. And when I swam, I was swept away. That’s how I crossed the flood neither standing nor swimming.”

“After a long time I see
a brahmin extinguished.
Neither standing nor swimming,
he’s crossed over clinging to the world.”


- SN 1.1

“What is called ‘the uninclined’ is hard to see,
for it is not easy to see the truth,
For the one who knows, who has penetrated craving,
for the one who sees there is nothing”


- Ud 8.2
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
skandha
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:38 am

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by skandha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:26 pm
If nibbāna were a thing then it would either arise and then cease, or it would remain still, but none of those apply to nibbāna. If nibbāna were a thing then it would be something arrived at, something entered into, but those do not apply. Nibbāna is here, right now in sense experience, before our eyes. Before his awakening Venerable Ānanda tried and tried all night to awaken, but to no avail. Then, when he laid down his head to sleep, he awakened. He totally let go.

Then he addressed the Buddha in verse:

“While walking, ascetic, you say ‘I’ve stopped.’
And I have stopped, but you tell me I’ve not.
I’m asking you this, ascetic:
how is it you’ve stopped and I have not?”

“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped—
I’ve laid aside violence towards all creatures.
But you can’t stop yourself from harming living creatures;
that’s why I’ve stopped, but you have not.”


- MN 86

“Neither standing nor swimming, sir, I crossed the flood.”

“But in what way did you cross the flood neither standing nor swimming?”

“When I stood still, I went under. And when I swam, I was swept away. That’s how I crossed the flood neither standing nor swimming.”

“After a long time I see
a brahmin extinguished.
Neither standing nor swimming,
he’s crossed over clinging to the world.”


- SN 1.1

“What is called ‘the uninclined’ Emancipation is hard to see,
for it is not easy to see the truth,
For the one who knows, who has penetrated craving,
for the one who sees there is nothing”


- Ud 8.2
:smile: I see your view has evolved since the last time you convinced me that nibbana is an existent.

Nibbana does not arise or cease but it does remain still. The unconditioned has the characteristic of "no alteration while it persists" (AN 3.47). This to me indicates that it remains still.

You said "Nibbāna is here, right now in sense experience, before our eyes.". This is an interesting point. To me this still indicates that Nibbana is a thing, though a special something that is always present within the "sight" of our mind if we choose to perceive it. Unlike other things/objects that may come and go from within our range of sense experience.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22286
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

skandha wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:05 pm

Nibbana does not arise or cease but it does remain still. The unconditioned has the characteristic of "no alteration while it persists" (AN 3.47). This to me indicates that it remains still.
I too argued that, but I was misreading it. The conditioned is marked by arising, ceasing and a change whilst persisting. The unconditioned is no arising, no ceasing and no persisting and changing. The parallel has it as "No arising, no ceasing, no change, no persisting".
You said "Nibbāna is here, right now in sense experience, before our eyes.". This is an interesting point. To me this still indicates that Nibbana is a thing, though a special something that is always present within the "sight" of our mind if we choose to perceive it. Unlike other things/objects that may come and go from within our range of sense experience.
Consider that when you see dependent origination, you see nibbāna. Arising, ceasing, changing, persisting. No arising, no ceasing, no change, no persisting.

When this was said, the Venerable Gavampati said to the elder bhikkhus: “Friends, in the presence of the Blessed One I have heard and learnt this:

‘Bhikkhus, one who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering.’”
- SN 56.30
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
skandha
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:38 am

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by skandha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:17 pm
skandha wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:05 pm

Nibbana does not arise or cease but it does remain still. The unconditioned has the characteristic of "no alteration while it persists" (AN 3.47). This to me indicates that it remains still.
I too argued that, but I was misreading it. The conditioned is marked by arising, ceasing and a change whilst persisting. The unconditioned is no arising, no ceasing and no persisting and changing. The parallel has it as "No arising, no ceasing, no change, no persisting".
We were discussing this point on an old post, viewtopic.php?p=575973&hilit=parallel#p575973.

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:17 pm
You said "Nibbāna is here, right now in sense experience, before our eyes.". This is an interesting point. To me this still indicates that Nibbana is a thing, though a special something that is always present within the "sight" of our mind if we choose to perceive it. Unlike other things/objects that may come and go from within our range of sense experience.
Consider that when you see dependent origination, you see nibbāna. Arising, ceasing, changing, persisting. No arising, no ceasing, no change, no persisting.

When this was said, the Venerable Gavampati said to the elder bhikkhus: “Friends, in the presence of the Blessed One I have heard and learnt this:

‘Bhikkhus, one who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering. One who sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering.’”
- SN 56.30
I see the point here. Dependent origination is not a thing. However there are evidences in other parts of the canon where it refers to nibbana more like an elemental thing, a dhatu. If we use the term dhamma to refer to nibbana then maybe it is less elemental and more a phenomenon.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by santa100 »

skandha wrote:I see the point here. Dependent origination is not a thing. However there are evidences in other parts of the canon where it refers to nibbana more like an elemental thing, a dhatu. If we use the term dhamma to refer to nibbana then maybe it is less elemental and more a phenomenon.
The term "dhamma" is much broader than the term "sankhara", for it also includes Nibbana:
Pali Dict. wrote:4. It [sankhara] occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata) and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhāra aniccā ... dukkhā). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element (asankhata-dhātu), i.e. Nibbāna (e.g. in sabbe dhammā anattā, "all things are without a self").
riceandcashews
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by riceandcashews »

I had one other thought about this that may or may not be helpful to some. "What experiences nirvana?" is a similar question to "what experiences your ordinary experiences", as in both cases Buddhism posits that there is no discernable subject of experience (not-self) in either case. We typically think that the subject/self is what all of those experiences have in common, that it binds them together.

A parallel question you can ask yourself is: what constitutes a tree as a tree, aside from being constituted of the leaves, the roots, the branches, the trunk, etc.? We'd say that those are all parts of a tree, the tree binds those parts together. But if you look for the tree that constitutes the whole apart from the parts, where will you find it? There is no tree, really. The "tree" has no causal power. It is only a conceptual category we impose.

Similarly, our "self" as a subject of experience or agent of action cannot be be found apart from the experiences or actions that constitute them. The "self" has no causal power. It is only a conceptual category we impose.
samsarayoga
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:25 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by samsarayoga »

Exactly :rofl:

Mind is gone in abhasara. Consciousness is gone in 3rd arupa jhana, the realm of nothingness. The soul is gone in 4th arupa jhana.

What is nibbana? :tongue:
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ontheway »

A clear answer has been given by Bhaddantacariya Buddhaghosa Thera in Visuddhimagga.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.
Vis. M. XVI

And this is further supported by Buddhavacana in Samyutta Nikaya:
“Good, good, Anuradha! Formerly, Anuradha, and also now, I make known just suffering and the cessation of suffering.”
SN22.86
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
samsarayoga
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:25 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by samsarayoga »

The Buddha understands samsara, thus he is afraid of it. Yet I'm confused why a Brahma can't simply read the mind of a Mara? People who don't understand samsara cannot escape it.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
riceandcashews
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by riceandcashews »

samsarayoga wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:20 am Exactly :rofl:

Mind is gone in abhasara. Consciousness is gone in 3rd arupa jhana, the realm of nothingness. The soul is gone in 4th arupa jhana.

What is nibbana? :tongue:
Consciousness isn't gone in the dimension of nothingness, nor in the dimension of neither perception-nor-non-perception, nor in the cessation of perception. Whatever you refer to as 'mind' and 'soul' isn't really clear so I can't speak as this seems to be your own way of using those terms.

There is an awareness in each of those states. The are identifiable and differentiated. If there were no experience in them, then they would all be the same state (equal to being unconscious/knocked out/in a coma) and there would be no way to differentiate them.

Nibbana is a release of clinging to self primarily, as well as everything else. And extinguishing of clinging. Consciousness continues in nirvana.
samsarayoga
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:25 pm

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by samsarayoga »

riceandcashews wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:47 pm Consciousness isn't gone in the dimension of nothingness, nor in the dimension of neither perception-nor-non-perception, nor in the cessation of perception. Whatever you refer to as 'mind' and 'soul' isn't really clear so I can't speak as this seems to be your own way of using those terms.

There is an awareness in each of those states. The are identifiable and differentiated. If there were no experience in them, then they would all be the same state (equal to being unconscious/knocked out/in a coma) and there would be no way to differentiate them.

Nibbana is a release of clinging to self primarily, as well as everything else. And extinguishing of clinging. Consciousness continues in nirvana.
You are in denial. Are you scared of the truth? This is like when your girl cheats on you or you lose your house and job. And you can't cope with reality.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
Post Reply