Flat Earth

[Vivekananda]

Greetings,
I was told that in the Abhidhamma or commentaries, there is a reference to the nature of our plane.
Since I am not an Abhidhamma specialist, i would appreciate, to find these cosmological references.
Best wishes from the forest.

[Ontheway]

Plane is not referring flat earth.

Plane here is a world utilised by English speaking translators... But what is really referring here is the different categories of existence.

Sense sphere plane or in Pali "Kamaloka" is referring to Hells, Ghost realm, Animal realm, Human world, six Deva realms (Catumaharajikā, Tavatimsa, Yama, Tusita, Nimmanarati, and Paranimmitavasavatti).
*Asura realm is also here but it is not a separate realm from others. This realm intercross with Catumaharajikā & Tavatimsa Deva realms.

Form plane or "Rupaloka" is referring all 16 higher Brahma worlds up to Akanitthaka realm.

Formless plane or "Arupaloka" is referring to four Brahma realms, which do not have physical appearance, they are (1) nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga, (2) akiñcaññayatanupaga, (3) viññanañcayatanupaga, & (4) akasanañcayatanupaga realms.

For details, read this: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... html#arupa

[Vivekananda]

Plane is not referring flat earth.

Plane here is a world utilised by English speaking translators...

Well i did Highlight it on purpose, isn't it a strange coincidence ?!
You know in my mothertongue, there is just one word for heaven and sky... just saying.

I appreciate the effort, but miss where i can read that the earth is flat in the Abhidhamma.

[Ontheway]

Plane is not referring flat earth.

Plane here is a world utilised by English speaking translators...

Well i did Highlight it on purpose, isn't it a strange coincidence ?!
You know in my mothertongue, there is just one word for heaven and sky... just saying.

I appreciate the effort, but miss where i can read that the earth is flat in the Abhidhamma.

Abhidhamma didn't say the planet earth is flat.

Your language has nothing to do with Pali canon.

[Mahabrahma]

Plane in Buddhism can refer to a type of reference to a type of Realm.

Ever had a Vision of a Place you haven't ever left, and had a beginingless life in? Then it flashed away back to here? Such things are experiences of other "Realms" such certain types of Planes are referring to.

Another type of Plane can be a Reference to a Level of Consciousness, on the Way to Enlightenment and Higher Meditation, used in Ancient Buddhism by the Buddhist Seers who studied with Gotama, who used Expedient Means to fuse Buddha's Teachings with those of the Deep Forest Dwellers who had also achieved a Level of Tranquility, but not yet Nibbana, in order to Guide them Ahead in a Language that they themselves understood so they could add the Dhamma to it, in forms propagated with the Dhamma, so they would not be left behind.

[Vivekananda]

Abhidhamma didn't say the planet earth is flat.

Your language has nothing to do with Pali canon.

Ha, there we go again, planet, these coincidences.But this may be cleared up by considering one of the supposed etymologies of the word plane, which reveals the following:

*pelə-, Proto-Indo-European root meaning "flat; to spread."
...
It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Greek plassein "to mold," plasma "something molded or created;" Latin planus "flat, level, even, plain, clear;" Lithuanian plonas "thin;" Celtic *lanon "plain;" Old Church Slavonic polje "flat land, field," Russian polyi "open;" Old English feld, Middle Dutch veld "field."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/planet# ... ne_v_16437
Nevertheless i do not like to use it though, as it is heavily loaded with various spherical objects...

As i discussed this flat earth topic with some of the asian Bhantes, they hinted, that it is also laid down in the Abhidhamma/commentaries, now i wonder how and where.

Ps: spherical stone masses racing through a vacuum have, to my knowldege, nothing to do with the Palī canon either.

[Coëmgenu]

I don't know if the Theravādin Abhidhamma has a "loka section" outlining the world. If it does, it will outline a flat disc-shaped earth orbited by the sun and moon with Sumeru at its centre. It will have four continents including Uttarakuru and Jambudvīpa. They will be surrounded by a great oceanic disc, perhaps a disc of multiple oceans of diverse liquids as in some medieval Buddhist literature, and this will be surrounded by air, perhaps cyclonic storms of extreme winds, as in some medieval Buddhist literature. Abhidhammātthasaṅgaha likely has some version of this, or Visuddhimagga. I'm not sure though.

What the OP is probably thinking of is Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma. The most famous Sarvāstivādin śāstra, Abhidharmakośakārikā, outlines a flat earth Sumeru cosmology with subterranean hells and airy heavens above it in the third chapter, "On the loka."

An example from the sūtras/suttas:

The earth floats on the water. The water is suspended in the air. The air stands amidst the ākāśa (of empty space). When a squall in the airs stirs the water, a flood follows. The flood disturbs the entire floating earth, and it is caused to quake.

(DĀ 2, parallel DN 16)

"Ākāśa of empty space" is for the sake of distinguishing it from the ākāśa of the sky, the ākāśa of the devalokas, the ākāśa of æther, and the ākāśa of the ākāśadhātu. The ākāśa of the sky is the expanse of sky above the earth. The ākāśa of the devalokas is that which we call "heavens" or "heavenly realms" that are populated by various orders of kāmadhātu and rūpadhātu deities. The ākāśa of æther refers to super subtle very fine material, and it only posited in Vaibhāṣika Buddhism. The ākāśa of the ākāśadhātu is the samskṛta (conditioned) absence of rūpa that separates one rūpa from another. The ākāśa of ākāśa, or "ākāśa of empty space," is what is called "great nothingness" or the "great void" between world-systems/lokadhātus. According to the Vaibhāṣikas and the Greco-Bactrian Masters, this ākāśa is asamskṛta (unconditioned).

It doesn't say in the above EBT quotation that it's flat (it technically isn't "flat," because the disc is thick enough to accommodate all of the hells within it), but if a sphere floated on the water, every now and then the waters of the great ocean that the earth floats in would wash away the surface. The spherical earth would role. The comparatively-flat Bhūmaṇḍala floats more-or-less stationarily because it is wide but not spherical. It rotates. It doesn't roll.

This is all very traditional Iron Age and medieval material. This worldview is important to Buddhism and Buddhist history, but is not correct from a modern scientifically-informed perspective. Nonetheless, the Dharma was taught this way for thousands of years before it was taught according to modern cosmology.

[Mumfie]

I appreciate the effort, but miss where i can read that the earth is flat in the Abhidhamma.

The link below will take you to the description of Recollection of the Buddha in the Visuddhimagga. If you scroll down to the Buddha's sixth attribute, "Knower of Worlds" (lokavidū), then you'll find a fairly detailed account of how the Earth's topography is conceived in the Sineru system. It's the section beginning with the words, He is the knower of worlds because he has known the world in all ways....

I think you'll find that the Earth is not pictured as flat, like, say, Holland...
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but rather as an extremely bumpy sort of place, like Switzerland.

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https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 85065.html
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[zerotime]

you can search in internet with the pali term tulamandale . This is the term of reference which means "disk, round flat circle".

[Mumfie]

you can search in internet with the pali term tulamandale . This is the term of reference which means "disk, round flat circle".

A tulamaṇḍala is the name for the dish or pan of a set of scales, in which, or upon which, one places the items to be weighed.

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It gets related to the Earth in one of the verses of the Sāriputta Apadāna:

Dhāretuṁ pathaviṁ sakkā,
ṭhapetvā tulamaṇḍale;
Na tveva tava sabbaññu,
ñāṇaṁ sakkā dharetave.

It may be possible to weigh the earth,
having placed it on a scale,
But All-Knowing One,
it's impossible to measure your knowledge.

But this doesn't tell us anything about the Earth's shape, for though the tulamaṇḍalas themselves will most often be circular, the items that you weigh in them can be of any shape.

[zerotime]

A tulamaṇḍala is the name for the dish or pan of a set of scales, in which, or upon which, one places the items to be weighed.

very interesting... Then maybe it should be another -mandala word?.

[Mumfie]

very interesting... Then maybe it should be another -mandala word?.

Maybe. There are over fifty Pāli compounds that begin or end with the word maṇḍala. An obvious candidate would be the sutta term paṭhavīmaṇḍala, "earth circle". However, this term tells us little, for it would be equally compatible with a spherical earth or an earth that's a circular plane. And so some translators translate it as sphere:

Without force, without weapons,
I conquered this earth.
I ruled it by righteousness,
without violence, by Dhamma,
exercising rulership by Dhamma
over this sphere of the earth.
(AN7.62. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

And others as a circle:

‘Long ago, O Brahman, there was a king by name Wide-realm (Mahā Vijita), mighty, with great wealth and large property; with stores of silver and gold, of aids to enjoyment, of goods and corn; with his treasure-houses and his garners full. Now when King Wide-realm was once sitting alone in meditation he became anxious at the thought: “I have in abundance all the good things a mortal can enjoy. The whole wide circle of the earth (mahantaṃ patha­vi­maṇḍa­laṃ) is mine by conquest to possess. ‘Twere well if I were to offer a great sacrifice that should ensure me weal and welfare for many days.”
(DN5. Thomas Rhys Davids)

As I remarked earlier, I don't think the Buddha of the suttas is concerned with declaring whether the earth is a plane or a sphere. What really matters (i.e., for samvega purposes) is that it's a mostly bumpy and hazardous sort of place:

"In this Jambudīpa delightful parks, groves, landscapes, and lotus ponds are few, while more numerous are hills and slopes, rivers that are hard to cross, places with stumps and thorns, and rugged mountains."

[Mahabrahma]

This vision doesn't escape my mind since I've seen it, and it makes me wonder....

[cappuccino]

This vision doesn't escape my mind since I've seen it, and it makes me wonder....

Delusion is a factor

[Mahabrahma]

This vision doesn't escape my mind since I've seen it, and it makes me wonder....

Delusion is a factor

Maybe. But maybe in some part of the world... There's a place like that, and what we think we know, we really don't...