There is no caste...

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Kusala
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There is no caste...

Post by Kusala »

...And once at such a time the o'erwrought Prince
Fell to the earth in deadly swoon, all spent,
Even as one slain, who hath no longer breath
Nor any stir of blood; so wan he was,
So motionless. But there came by that way
A shepherd-boy, who saw Siddartha lie
With lids fast-closed, and lines of nameless pain
Fixed on his lips—the fiery noonday sun
Beating upon his head—who, plucking boughs
From wild rose-apple trees, knitted them thick
Into a bower to shade the sacred face.

Also he poured upon the Master's lips
Drops of warm milk, pressed from his she-goat's bag,
Lest, being of low caste, he do wrong to one
So high and holy seeming...

And the boy worshipped, deeming him some God;
But our Lord, gaining breath, arose and asked
Milk in the shepherd's lots. "Ah, my Lord,
I cannot give thee," quoth the lad; "thou seest
I am a Sudra, and my touch defiles!"

Then the World-honoured spake: "Pity and need
Make all flesh kin. There is no caste in blood,
Which runneth of one hue, nor caste in tears,
Which trickle salt with all; neither comes man
To birth with tilka-mark stamped on the brow,
Nor sacred thread on neck. Who doth right deeds
Is twice-born, and who doeth ill deeds vile.
Give me to drink, my brother; when I come
Unto my quest it shall be good for thee."
Thereat the peasant's heart was glad, and gave.


https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8920/89 ... k2H_4_0004
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Eko Care
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by Eko Care »

There is caste.

Vasala sutta:
Kammana vasalo hoti, kammana hoti brahmano

One becomes Vasala by deeds.
One becomes Brahmana by deeds.
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Gwi II
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by Gwi II »

Now many people are casteless,
But the khattiyo caste is still the
foremost. The Buddho have caste.

In Britain only khattiyo and ordinary people. In India it same as
before and in Indonesia we still have khattiyos, but it seemed
they didn't exist. Indonesia have around 200 khattiyos.

These are the kings in Indonesia who still exist, the khattiyos:

https://sultansinindonesieblog.wordpres ... indonesia/

🇮🇩 Indonesia is a land of sultans :clap:
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AgarikaJ
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by AgarikaJ »

The Buddha saw himself (and his monastic disciples) clearly as outside of caste.

See the Vasala Sutta: Discourse on Outcasts, SN 1.7:
Then the Blessed One, while on his alms round, came to the brahman's residence. The brahman seeing the Blessed One some way off, said this: "Stay there, you shaveling, stay there you wretched monk, stay there you outcast." When he spoke thus the Blessed One said to the brahman: "Do you know, brahman, who an outcast is and what the conditions are that make an outcast?" "No, indeed, Venerable Gotama, I do not know who an outcast is nor the conditions that make an outcast. It is good if Venerable Gotama were to explain the Dhamma to me so that I may know who an outcast is and what the conditions are that make an outcast."[1]

"Listen then, brahman, and pay attention, I will speak."

"Yes, Venerable Sir," replied the brahman.

1. "Whosoever is angry, harbors hatred, and is reluctant to speak well of others (discredits the good of others), perverted in views, deceitful — know him as an outcast.

...

27. "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman."
The Buddha was very clear, that anybody -- including Untouchables -- were welcome to go forth and become monks. Who their parents were, what caste they were, this did not matter to him and did not define their potential spiritual status later-on.

However... The Buddha was not a social or political reformer!

He did not speak out strongly against the caste structure of the worldly society he came from, instead he often perused the hospitality of kings and nobility, setting up Royal Patronage for the Sangha at the earliest stages. He even advised that masters are to treat their servants humanely and fairly; see: Sigalovada Sutta: The Discourse to Sigala, DN 31.

As such, one might see him as tolerating of caste and a hierarchical stratification of society -- or of any other civil system laypeople might organize themselves around. It simply did not matter to him, as long as people could separate themselves by becoming monastics.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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Sam Vara
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by Sam Vara »

AgarikaJ wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:00 am The Buddha saw himself (and his monastic disciples) clearly as outside of caste.

...

As such, one might see him as tolerating of caste and a hierarchical stratification of society -- or of any other civil system laypeople might organize themselves around. It simply did not matter to him, as long as people could separate themselves by becoming monastics.
Indeed. And there's a wonderful dissociation of the caste system and ethical behaviour/nobility at the start of DN 27. The Buddha clearly pointed out that caste was one thing, and the type of purity he was concerned with, was another different thing. He didn't criticise the caste system itself, but pointed out the error of those Brahmins who equated the two. That is subversive, but not confrontational.
some aristocrats refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and committing sexual misconduct. They refrain from speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, and nonsensical. And they’re content, kind-hearted, with right view.
Khattiyopi kho, vāseṭṭha, idhekacco pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato, musāvādā paṭivirato, pisuṇāya vācāya paṭivirato, pharusāya vācāya paṭivirato, samphappalāpā paṭivirato, anabhijjhālu abyāpannacitto, sammādiṭṭhī.
These things are skillful, blameless, to be cultivated, worthy of the noble ones—and are reckoned as such. They are bright deeds with bright results, praised by sensible people. Such things are exhibited in some aristocrats.
Iti kho, vāseṭṭha, yeme dhammā kusalā kusalasaṅkhātā anavajjā anavajjasaṅkhātā sevitabbā sevitabbasaṅkhātā alamariyā alamariyasaṅkhātā sukkā sukkavipākā viññuppasatthā, khattiyepi te idhekacce sandissanti.
And they are also seen among some brahmins,
Brāhmaṇopi kho, vāseṭṭha …pe…
peasants,
vessopi kho, vāseṭṭha …pe…
and menials.
suddopi kho, vāseṭṭha, idhekacco pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti …pe…
anabhijjhālu, abyāpannacitto, sammādiṭṭhī.
Iti kho, vāseṭṭha, yeme dhammā kusalā kusalasaṅkhātā anavajjā anavajjasaṅkhātā sevitabbā sevitabbasaṅkhātā alamariyā alamariyasaṅkhātā sukkā sukkavipākā viññuppasatthā;
suddepi te idhekacce sandissanti.

Both these things occur like this, mixed up in these four castes—the dark and the bright, that which is praised and that which is criticized by sensible people. Yet of this the brahmins say:
Imesu kho, vāseṭṭha, catūsu vaṇṇesu evaṁ ubhayavokiṇṇesu vattamānesu kaṇhasukkesu dhammesu viññugarahitesu ceva viññuppasatthesu ca yadettha brāhmaṇā evamāhaṁsu:
‘Only brahmins are the best caste; other castes are inferior.
‘brāhmaṇova seṭṭho vaṇṇo, hīnā aññe vaṇṇā;
Only brahmins are the light caste; other castes are dark.
brāhmaṇova sukko vaṇṇo, kaṇhā aññe vaṇṇā;
Only brahmins are purified, not others.
brāhmaṇāva sujjhanti, no abrāhmaṇā;
Only brahmins are Brahmā’s rightful sons, born of his mouth, born of Brahmā, created by Brahmā, heirs of Brahmā.’
brāhmaṇāva brahmuno puttā orasā mukhato jātā brahmajā brahmanimmitā brahmadāyādā’ti.

Sensible people don’t acknowledge this.
Taṁ tesaṁ viññū nānujānanti.
Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?
Because any mendicant from these four castes who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—is said to be foremost by virtue of principle, not against principle.
https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato ... ript=latin
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AgarikaJ
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by AgarikaJ »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:31 am And there's a wonderful dissociation of the caste system and ethical behaviour/nobility at the start of DN 27. The Buddha clearly pointed out that caste was one thing, and the type of purity he was concerned with, was another different thing. He didn't criticise the caste system itself, but pointed out the error of those Brahmins who equated the two. That is subversive, but not confrontational.
Because any mendicant from these four castes who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—is said to be foremost by virtue of principle, not against principle.
https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato ... ript=latin
This is indeed a very succinct quote, adding to my understanding of Sila.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
Shanks
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by Shanks »

Tell it to head monks of siam nikaya sri lanka,
they only let govigama caste people to get higher ordination.
and they even discriminate in between them up country govigama caste monks give higher seats in even in Tooth Temple of Kandy , they don't care about ordination age first they check caste.

this is a well know thing in sri lanka ,
admin won't aprrove this idk
but this is reality of siam nikaya sri lanka
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DNS
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by DNS »

Shanks wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:39 am Tell it to head monks of siam nikaya sri lanka,
they only let govigama caste people to get higher ordination.
and they even discriminate in between them up country govigama caste monks give higher seats in even in Tooth Temple of Kandy , they don't care about ordination age first they check caste.
Correct, an unfortunate situation. I know some Sri Lankan monks who are against that and deliberately ordained in the lower-caste sect even though they are high-caste; as a protest against that.
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Kusala
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Re: There is no caste...

Post by Kusala »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:02 pm There is caste.

Vasala sutta:
Kammana vasalo hoti, kammana hoti brahmano

One becomes Vasala by deeds.
One becomes Brahmana by deeds.
context is everything...
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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