what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
Pulsar
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

thomaslaw wrote
I visited the place Shravasti (Sravasti) where the Buddha preformed the Yamakapratiharya or the "twin miracle".
Buddha had forbidden monks to perform miracles. If he himself performed a miracle after that admonishment, was he not setting a bad example?
I do not think Buddha would do that. In the "Way to the Beyond" Pingiya says "when a voice has none of the glibness of pride", of Buddha. Which sutta reports the twin miracle?
You wrote
Following the miracle, the Buddha is said to have ascended to Tavatimsa Heaven for three months to spend his rains-retreat and teach his deceased mother the Abhidhamma.
Why did he teach abhidhamma instead of Buddha Dhamma? Was he trying to confuse his mother?
Abhidhamma says rupa of Nama rupa of DO is physical. Buddha Dhamma says Rupa of nama-rupa is mentally retrieved, therefore mental. It is a dhamma, not a rock or a physical body. If Buddha went to heaven to teach his mother, don't you think he would teach his mother the facts?
You wrote
But I do not know for sure which Abhidhamma text?
Do all of them say rupa of Nama-rupa is physical?
This I do not know.
With love :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

The twin miracle is in SĀ 197 and in EĀ somewhere. I'd need time to find it in EĀ. In the Pāli tradition, it shows up in the Vinaya AFAIK.

Every extant Abhidharma I know of says that form is physical and doesn't say that form is some purely mental appearance generated by the mind. These are not Abhidharmas from sects that are particularly friendly with one another.
I behold you, for upon my body
you have enacted many yajñas.
The robe of your glory covers my body.
You have filled me with treasures greater than the seven gems.

Upon my body, your gifts are counted in the asaṃkhyeyas.
Upon my body, you have renounced your body.
Upon my body, you have cut your skin, spilled your blood,
broken your bones, and burned your flesh.

The ocean of your charity is stored in the rivers of my hair.
Just as the Victor prevails over death,
the torrent of the ocean prevails over Māra's hosts
when I twist my hair and release it upon them.
Pulsar
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
Every extant Abhidharma I know of says that form is physical
that helps me. Now I know that Buddha would not teach Abhidhamma to his mother. Why would he contradict himself? at the first step of the very initiation of suffering. The main point was to teach how suffering originated.
Once one understands this, it can be cut off at the point of origin, like a palm stump.
You wrote
form is some purely mental appearance generated by the mind.
Do you mean not derived from the 4 great elements? suttas never say that.
Buddha has not spoken of hallucinogens, and how they lead to hallucination. That is a foreign concept to me.
Thanks :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

A hallucinogenic Dharma is precisely where your eccentric doctrine of "rūpa is strictly mental" leads you. It leads to a pseudo-Yogācāra mess.

Or are you now going to say that the four mahābhūtas are physical, not mental? If you say so, you contradict yourself.
I behold you, for upon my body
you have enacted many yajñas.
The robe of your glory covers my body.
You have filled me with treasures greater than the seven gems.

Upon my body, your gifts are counted in the asaṃkhyeyas.
Upon my body, you have renounced your body.
Upon my body, you have cut your skin, spilled your blood,
broken your bones, and burned your flesh.

The ocean of your charity is stored in the rivers of my hair.
Just as the Victor prevails over death,
the torrent of the ocean prevails over Māra's hosts
when I twist my hair and release it upon them.
Pulsar
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
The twin miracle is in SĀ 197
I looked up SA 197.
  • Its Pali parallel SN 35.28 Aditta sutta, does not refer to any of the miracles that SA 197 refers to.
Pali sticks to the doctrine strictly. Perhaps SA 197 copied some of the miracles mentioned in Pali Vinaya. A case where Pali compiler chose to ignore Vinaya miracles, and stuck to the doctrine.
  • Buddha's teaching on the sense bases is itself a miracle, why would he bother with silly miracles?
He was not trying to impress idiots, was he? idiots would never understand Buddha Dhamma, even if a thousand miracles were performed. It is hard for some to understand that rupa of Nama-rupa of DO is a worldly dhamma, and not a stick, stone or a pillar,
  • in spite of the Buddha calling Rupa, a worldly dhamma.
Regards :candle:

PS Your last comment, you will have to try harder at twisting and warping my words. I am not an idiot.
Last edited by Pulsar on Thu May 26, 2022 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm not twisting your words in the least. You insist that rūpa is mental, not physical. Since rūpa includes the four dhātus of the mahābhūtas, if you think that those mahābhūtas are not mental, you've contradicted your own theories.
I behold you, for upon my body
you have enacted many yajñas.
The robe of your glory covers my body.
You have filled me with treasures greater than the seven gems.

Upon my body, your gifts are counted in the asaṃkhyeyas.
Upon my body, you have renounced your body.
Upon my body, you have cut your skin, spilled your blood,
broken your bones, and burned your flesh.

The ocean of your charity is stored in the rivers of my hair.
Just as the Victor prevails over death,
the torrent of the ocean prevails over Māra's hosts
when I twist my hair and release it upon them.
Pulsar
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
I'm not twisting your words in the least. You insist that rūpa is mental
Now remember, we are discussing rupa of Nama-rupa of DO, not Nama-rupa of Upanisads, where the brahmins claimed rupa is physical. I am not talking of brahmanism.
  • I insist "that rupa" is mental, since Buddha called "that rupa" a worldly phenomenon.
Thank you :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Brahmanism, as I see it, has nothing to do with this.

You responded to a premise. The premise was "form is some purely mental appearance generated by the mind."

Your response, which I found more than a bit puzzling given your ubiquitous argumentation on the forum elsewhere, was "Do you mean not derived from the 4 great elements?"

Do you feel that something that is purely mental cannot be said to be derived from the "4 great elements?"
I behold you, for upon my body
you have enacted many yajñas.
The robe of your glory covers my body.
You have filled me with treasures greater than the seven gems.

Upon my body, your gifts are counted in the asaṃkhyeyas.
Upon my body, you have renounced your body.
Upon my body, you have cut your skin, spilled your blood,
broken your bones, and burned your flesh.

The ocean of your charity is stored in the rivers of my hair.
Just as the Victor prevails over death,
the torrent of the ocean prevails over Māra's hosts
when I twist my hair and release it upon them.
thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by thomaslaw »

The Buddha preached the Abhidhamma in Trāyastriṃśa heaven, according to Theravada tradition. The tradition also holds that the Buddha gave synopsis of the Abhidhamma teachings given in the heavenly realm to the bhikkhu Sariputta, who passed them on:
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Pulsar
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Dear thomaslaw: that is an amazing picture! I love it.
Do you think a blind artist could have created this image, if s/he never saw the face of a human derived from the great 4 elements, or if s/he had not seen an image of the Buddha of a similar nature?
Images in memory count, right?
  • Images formed in memory due to past experience?
Do you concur that those images are solid/physical?
  • I am referring to the image only,
not the CNS and sense organs required for imagination to happen.
Now we must remember that the CNS and sense organs are
made up of 4 great elements? However I am talking of an image.
  • A projector is solid, but the image it projects is not solid at all. Or do you think the image is solid?
Do you think that I could see the picture you posted, if I did not have eyes derived from the the four great elements?
To be able to infer, "the figures floating on the clouds as gods paying homage to Buddha" (if I had not heard of buddhist mythology that refers to assembly of gods around Buddha) do you think I could come to that conclusion?
  • Do you think the artist who created this picture ever saw gods seated on the clouds?
There is something called human imagination, Do you agree? When that imagination goes berserk it leads to mental proliferation.
Word "Papanca" is found recurrently in buddhist literature.
  • Do the images in your mind exist as physical events or mental events?
Do you think the image in your mind of tree you saw when you were a child, or the voice of your mother (sound) you can retrieve (even though your mother is far away) do you think those are physical?
Thank you for the vision. :candle:
PS a picture that speaks better than a thousand words
thomaslaw
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by thomaslaw »

Seeking nothing, just sitting mindfully.
wenjaforever
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by wenjaforever »

The abhidhamma wasn't the words of the Buddha, it's why it is a separate basket. I'm not sure if khudaka nikaya are the words of the Buddha himself. Could anyone enlighten me? The abhidhamma is basically an attempt of elder monks in the past to articulate or explain the buddhawacana.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Ontheway
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

To say Abhidhamma is not the teachings of the Buddha is an utter insult to the Theravada (Vibhajjavadi) tradition. You should abandon the thought.

You could read Atthasalini for the history on how the classification of doctrines into Pitaka occurred.
Tattha vuttabhidhammatthā, catudhā paramatthato.
Cittam cetasikam rūpam, nibbānamiti sabbathā.


- Abhidhammattha Sangaha
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

wenjaforever wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:39 am The abhidhamma wasn't the words of the Buddha, it's why it is a separate basket. I'm not sure if khudaka nikaya are the words of the Buddha himself. Could anyone enlighten me? The abhidhamma is basically an attempt of elder monks in the past to articulate or explain the buddhawacana.
For Theravādins the Abhidhamma is the word of the Buddha, because he actually taught it himself. For Sarvāstivādins the Abhidharma was developed by later monks, but it is still the word of the Buddha because it explains the meaning of the Dhamma. For them it is present in the sutras, but is extracted from them and explained by later monks. It all depends on what is meant by buddhavacana, and if the Buddha directly taught it himself or not.
“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife.”


Māgaṇḍiyasutta
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