The Gandhabba

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Ontheway
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Re: The Gandhabba

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Attabhava is a concept refer to oneself or to differentiate individuals. It is used for conventional purpose of conversation.

It is not to be regarded as in ultimate reality, that there is a Self. If you do so, you have Sakkaya Ditthi.
Tattha vuttabhidhammatthā, catudhā paramatthato.
Cittam cetasikam rūpam, nibbānamiti sabbathā.


- Abhidhammattha Sangaha
auto
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:52 am Attabhava is a concept refer to oneself or to differentiate individuals. It is used for conventional purpose of conversation.

It is not to be regarded as in ultimate reality, that there is a Self. If you do so, you have Sakkaya Ditthi.
In case of salayatana, the attabhava is a contact to be experienced as a feeling. Cessation of salayatana would mean the reality where the attabhava were produced in, is given up(jaha), thereon the attabhava occurs externally and gradually becomes indistinguishable from the waking state.
So, no it is not just a convention like you present it.
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Ontheway
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Re: The Gandhabba

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auto wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:34 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:52 am Attabhava is a concept refer to oneself or to differentiate individuals. It is used for conventional purpose of conversation.

It is not to be regarded as in ultimate reality, that there is a Self. If you do so, you have Sakkaya Ditthi.
In case of salayatana, the attabhava is a contact to be experienced as a feeling. Cessation of salayatana would mean the reality where the attabhava were produced in, is given up(jaha), thereon the attabhava occurs externally and gradually becomes indistinguishable from the waking state.
So, no it is not just a convention like you present it.
This statement of yours is hammered out of thin air, without support from both Suttantas and Abhidhamma.
Tattha vuttabhidhammatthā, catudhā paramatthato.
Cittam cetasikam rūpam, nibbānamiti sabbathā.


- Abhidhammattha Sangaha
auto
Posts: 3786
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: The Gandhabba

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:04 am This statement of yours is hammered out of thin air, without support from both Suttantas and Abhidhamma.
i doubt it is 'hammered out of thin air' since i can bring quotes what was base for my sentences.
I used the term jaha from this.
Ok, you don't see the term attabhava here mentioned, but the entire sutta has it as a core term, spelled out.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: When an ignorant person acts
Lobhajaṁ dosajañceva, Variant: dosajañceva → dosajaṁ kammaṁ (mr)
out of greed, hate, or delusion,
mohajañcāpaviddasu;
any deeds they have done,
Yaṁ tena pakataṁ kammaṁ,
a little or a lot,
appaṁ vā yadi vā bahuṁ;
are to be experienced right here,
Idheva taṁ vedaniyaṁ,
not in any other place.
vatthu aññaṁ na vijjati.

So a wise person,
Tasmā lobhañca dosañca,
a mendicant arousing knowledge
mohajañcāpi viddasu;
of the outcome of greed, hate, and delusion,
Vijjaṁ uppādayaṁ bhikkhu,
would cast off all bad destinies.”
sabbā duggatiyo jahe”ti.
I remember you learned about the term attabhava few years back, the definition you gave to it is the same as today, no progression gone through. I think the 'thin air' fits you better. Its not something you think about unless someone mentions it to you. And you had similar reaction towards attabhava, that this word is not in the suttas..
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Ontheway
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Re: The Gandhabba

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The attabhava there is neither a separated Bhava, nor it is a designation to be used in ultimate reality (Paramattha). Like I said before, it is a conventional concept used to differentiate individuals.

To suggest that there is real "person", "self", "ultimate self", "original self", "waking self", "whatever self"....... and fit this concept to "attabhava" that experiencing good and bad Vipakas, is NOT Theravada Buddhism.

And certainly do not fit into Buddha's teaching of Anatta.

This is why studying Abhidhamma is important. The purpose of Abhidhamma study is to relinquish the various "self" wrong views (eternalism) as stated in Brahmajala sutta. Not only that, it will help us relinquish nihilism too, as we study how one life link to another in details.
Tattha vuttabhidhammatthā, catudhā paramatthato.
Cittam cetasikam rūpam, nibbānamiti sabbathā.


- Abhidhammattha Sangaha
auto
Posts: 3786
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: The Gandhabba

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:21 am The attabhava there is neither a separated Bhava, nor it is a designation to be used in ultimate reality (Paramattha). Like I said before, it is a conventional concept used to differentiate individuals.
Conventional reality is made up of the ultimate reality. If to use it the other way around then perhaps the conventional reality is nothing but fairy dust.
Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:21 am To suggest that there is real "person", "self", "ultimate self", "original self", "waking self", "whatever self"....... and fit this concept to "attabhava" that experiencing good and bad Vipakas, is NOT Theravada Buddhism.
Abhidhamma says person is made up of name and form. Writing off person as a fairy dust does nothing since the person will be there as long the name and form is making it up.
Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:21 am And certainly do not fit into Buddha's teaching of Anatta.
khandhas are not the self. But i'm pretty sure you think some of the inherited traits as your self, simply by not yet seen and considered certain mannerism you play out regularly to be not yours.
Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:21 am This is why studying Abhidhamma is important. The purpose of Abhidhamma study is to relinquish the various "self" wrong views (eternalism) as stated in Brahmajala sutta. Not only that, it will help us relinquish nihilism too, as we study how one life link to another in details.
understanding of abhidhamma varies from person to person.
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