Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
DeadBuddha
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:19 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:08 am

V&V mean something like initial thought and contemplating, the “wandering about” the initial thought. When vitakka is on its own it just means “thought” for example there are suttas where sense-desire itself is a “thought”. In the Jhanas it’s not verbal chatter. I don’t think SN 21.1 proves that V&V is mental mumblings.
Thanks. However, it seems to me that a discursive verbal thought could quite, in the texts, be linked or even confused with sensual desire.
The suttas I have in mind have kamavitakko which reads as “sensual desire thought”, as in the sensual desire is the thought itself rather than verbal thinking.
I understand. Kāmavitakko, byāpādavitakko, and vihiṃsāvitakko, are not understood as "verbal discursive thought". But it is likely that their meaning is different from "savitakka", which (I think) means "discursive verbal thought".
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confusedlayman
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:17 pm vitakka and vicarra is mind voice
I wouldn’t say so. I think it’s a shame people are missing out on the blissful stillness of having a non-chattering mind.
Mind chatter gone in 2nd jhana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:19 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:15 pm

Thanks. However, it seems to me that a discursive verbal thought could quite, in the texts, be linked or even confused with sensual desire.
The suttas I have in mind have kamavitakko which reads as “sensual desire thought”, as in the sensual desire is the thought itself rather than verbal thinking.
I understand. Kāmavitakko, byāpādavitakko, and vihiṃsāvitakko, are not understood as "verbal discursive thought". But it is likely that their meaning is different from "savitakka", which (I think) means "discursive verbal thought".
Consider that V&V are synonyms of saṅkappa, and so are closer in meaning to intentions. During anapanasati you intend towards the breath, towards satipatthana. You direct your mind to the breath (vitakka) and analyse or “wander about” it with vicara. Is it long, short etc. This of course leads to Jhana, and so V&V are “initial thought and evaluation” or, to put it another way, “applied and sustained thought”. The Noble Silence you mention is the stilling of this intentionality and scrutinising of the mind, where you rest more fully in the samadhi. It’s not normal silence. It’s Noble silence, where the mind is almost perfectly still.
“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife.”


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DeadBuddha
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:44 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:19 pm

The suttas I have in mind have kamavitakko which reads as “sensual desire thought”, as in the sensual desire is the thought itself rather than verbal thinking.
I understand. Kāmavitakko, byāpādavitakko, and vihiṃsāvitakko, are not understood as "verbal discursive thought". But it is likely that their meaning is different from "savitakka", which (I think) means "discursive verbal thought".
Consider that V&V are synonyms of saṅkappa, and so are closer in meaning to intentions. During anapanasati you intend towards the breath, towards satipatthana. You direct your mind to the breath (vitakka) and analyse or “wander about” it with vicara. Is it long, short etc. This of course leads to Jhana, and so V&V are “initial thought and evaluation” or, to put it another way, “applied and sustained thought”. The Noble Silence you mention is the stilling of this intentionality and scrutinising of the mind, where you rest more fully in the samadhi. It’s not normal silence. It’s Noble silence, where the mind is almost perfectly still.
Thank you it's interesting
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:17 pm vitakka and vicarra is mind voice
I wouldn’t say so. I think it’s a shame people are missing out on the blissful stillness of having a non-chattering mind.
Mind chatter gone in 2nd jhana
One of the great insights you can have is how the normal chattering mind actually gets in the way of meditation, and how peacful it is to let it go. How you don't need this mental chat commenting on everything, trying to figure things out or getting lost in a train of thought. Even deeper still, when you let it go, how those thoughts are not you. They are anatta.
“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife.”


Māgaṇḍiyasutta
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Alex123
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:17 pm vitakka and vicarra is mind voice
I wouldn’t say so. I think it’s a shame people are missing out on the blissful stillness of having a non-chattering mind.
Yes, that state (2nd Jhana or higher) is blissful while it lasts. But then, the goal isn't to silence the mind, the goal is to develop wisdom that will uproot the fetters. Thinking, in and of itself, isn't a fetter. Greed, anger, delusion, wrong views, etc are.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:17 pm vitakka and vicarra is mind voice
I wouldn’t say so. I think it’s a shame people are missing out on the blissful stillness of having a non-chattering mind.
Yes, that state (2nd Jhana or higher) is blissful while it lasts. But then, the goal isn't to silence the mind, the goal is to develop wisdom that will uproot the fetters. Thinking, in and of itself, isn't a fetter. Greed, anger, delusion, wrong views, etc are.
It begins at access concentration. Noble Silence is more refined again. No one said the goal is to silence the mind, so this looks like a straw man.
“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife.”


Māgaṇḍiyasutta
Microdose
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Microdose »

DeadBuddha wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:57 am Thanks. Maybe that's correct. But do you think that leads to the Buddha's jhanas?
Only one way to find out :meditate:

The question becomes how heavily conditioned is mind to notice refined mind states connected to breath

The way is simple

The mind and head full of thoughts and ideas is more complex
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by BrokenBones »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:36 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:17 pm vitakka and vicarra is mind voice
I wouldn’t say so. I think it’s a shame people are missing out on the blissful stillness of having a non-chattering mind.
Yes, that state (2nd Jhana or higher) is blissful while it lasts. But then, the goal isn't to silence the mind, the goal is to develop wisdom that will uproot the fetters. Thinking, in and of itself, isn't a fetter. Greed, anger, delusion, wrong views, etc are.
Agreed, so simple.

Second jhana = noble silence... what is silenced? = thoughts.

What is the underpinning of Right Samadhi = Right view.

Right View, Effort (has to involve thinking) & mindfulness (remembering) circle each other.

The Right thoughts have to be utilised with Right View for first jhana... thoughts continue (gradually attenuating) in first jhana. Thoughts let go of... voila second jhana... no access concentration, balls of light, counterpart signs or other sixth century innovations involved and full mindfulness remains throughout the jhanas (not just mere awareness).

Maybe someone out there could explain how greed, anger & delusion are eradicated if the concentration used is not underpinned with Right View?

Perhaps they think that they can travel the path up to concentration and then double back to correct their view. It don't work like that... view has to be in place and utilised as the bedrock for concentration.
DeadBuddha
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Your posts are very interesting. I don't know what to think of these ideas of conceptual breathing and nimitta anymore.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DeadBuddha wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:07 am Your posts are very interesting. I don't know what to think of these ideas of conceptual breathing and nimitta anymore.
You have to do what feels right for you.
“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife.”


Māgaṇḍiyasutta
DeadBuddha
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Ok thank you
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by BrokenBones »

DeadBuddha wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:07 am Your posts are very interesting. I don't know what to think of these ideas of conceptual breathing and nimitta anymore.
There's always trial & error... but take the suttas (the Buddha's words) at face value and you won't go far wrong.
DeadBuddha
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by DeadBuddha »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:47 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:07 am Your posts are very interesting. I don't know what to think of these ideas of conceptual breathing and nimitta anymore.
There's always trial & error... but take the suttas (the Buddha's words) at face value and you won't go far wrong.
Thank you very much.

May all beings be free from suffering.
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Alex123
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:55 pm It begins at access concentration. Noble Silence is more refined again. No one said the goal is to silence the mind, so this looks like a straw man.
How is access concentration in pali, and where is it found in the suttas?


Thanks.
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