‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

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zerotime
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:12 am As I recall the story, they didn't try to make him believe anything. He himself (out of his own conceit, I suppose) believed that.
of course, according the text it was his own conceit. Although it was an action similar to those police forces who are infiltrated into destructive cults in order to save the adherents from the crazy guru. We know the action is moral because we know the moral purpose, although there is an strategy of deception developed for the unmoral person.
I will be glad if you realize something wrong in this line of thought and you explain this.
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Kumara
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:39 am
Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:12 am As I recall the story, they didn't try to make him believe anything. He himself (out of his own conceit, I suppose) believed that.
of course, according the text it was his own conceit. Although it was an action similar to those police forces who are infiltrated into destructive cults in order to save the adherents from the crazy guru. We know the action is moral because we know the moral purpose, although there is an strategy of deception developed for the unmoral person.
I will be glad if you realize something wrong in this line of thought and you explain this.
Maybe you can say "deceptive" in the sense that they didn't may why they went, and allowed Devadatta to misconstrue. Still, they didn't actually deceive.

As for the example of police officers infiltrating cults, I suppose it's the same. But if they lied in the process, then it's obviously deceptive.
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zerotime
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:27 am Maybe you can say "deceptive" in the sense that they didn't may why they went, and allowed Devadatta to misconstrue. Still, they didn't actually deceive.
As for the example of police officers infiltrating cults, I suppose it's the same. But if they lied in the process, then it's obviously deceptive.
Do you mean the deception would require of somebody experiencing the other's intention to deceive at the same moment of developing the intention to deceive?. Therefore, the strategy to rescue the disciples without a concrete moment deceiving Devadatta it wouldn't be a deception, despite at the end he was felt deceived.

I understand right what you mean?

I thought about this possibility, although i don't know all the possible derivations it could have. I mean, allowing that somebody can misconstrue the Reality because the own actions we can do. Right intention would cover all the possibilities?
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:47 amDo you mean the deception would require of somebody experiencing the other's intention to deceive at the same moment of developing the intention to deceive?
Well, it's just an English word, and we can debate to no end what it should mean.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

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The Buddha is my teacher. :anjali:
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:28 am Well, it's just an English word, and we can debate to no end what it should mean.
just I try to clarify the space for the right action when there is not lying, although we can develop actions knowing these could cause the deception in somebody.

It has quite implications for the daily life. In example, a bad boss is exploiting somebody beyond the reasonable in his job. One day he says "go for that report to the X streed address and return here quickly". As the worker is experiencing anxiety because the bad boss, he leave the building and spend some time to get some relax, going for a coffee, talking with somebody, etcetera. And he come back 40 minutes later with the report, when in fact he could fulfilled that task in 10 minutes.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:46 pm
Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:28 am Well, it's just an English word, and we can debate to no end what it should mean.
just I try to clarify the space for the right action when there is not lying, although we can develop actions knowing these could cause the deception in somebody.

It has quite implications for the daily life. In example, a bad boss is exploiting somebody beyond the reasonable in his job. One day he says "go for that report to the X streed address and return here quickly". As the worker is experiencing anxiety because the bad boss, he leave the building and spend some time to get some relax, going for a coffee, talking with somebody, etcetera. And he come back 40 minutes later with the report, when in fact he could fulfilled that task in 10 minutes.
Then, better leave the job.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:58 pm Then, better leave the job.
then why you don't wrote in your article only one phrase: "better leave the psychopat" ?
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:33 am
Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:58 pm Then, better leave the job.
then why you don't wrote in your article only one phrase: "better leave the psychopat" ?
It's different. When you're under the influence of the psychopath, you think you're with an amazing person.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:10 am It's different. When you're under the influence of the psychopath, you think you're with an amazing person.
The burden of believing oneself an amazing person is heavier than the burden of sustaining a family?

Why one can be solved in a simplistic way and the other no?
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

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zerotime wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:37 am
Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:10 am It's different. When you're under the influence of the psychopath, you think you're with an amazing person.
The burden of believing oneself an amazing person is heavier than the burden of sustaining a family?

Why one can be solved in a simplistic way and the other no?
When you leave a job, you can go to another, right?
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zerotime
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:08 am When you leave a job, you can go to another, right?
right, although not always is possible in the short term.

When you leave a religious group, you can go to another, right?
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:08 pm
Kumara wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:08 am When you leave a job, you can go to another, right?
right, although not always is possible in the short term.

When you leave a religious group, you can go to another, right?
Of course, but a person under the (undue) influence of a psychopath wouldn't want to at all, because he/she deeply believes that it's better for him stay. In some cases, they even feel divinely privileged to serve the psychopathic leader/teacher. (Bear in mind: They don't know the teacher is a psychopath.)
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Kumara wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:14 am Of course, but a person under the (undue) influence of a psychopath wouldn't want to at all, because he/she deeply believes that it's better for him stay. In some cases, they even feel divinely privileged to serve the psychopathic leader/teacher. (Bear in mind: They don't know the teacher is a psychopath.)
I wonder how many Linkedin subscribers can share that situation word by word.

Respectfully, really I don't wish to be engaged in a loop about the validity of the example.
The example was just a context to insert the doubt. If you think its validity is the main issue, I will respect that and leaving the issue for some another time :anjali:
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