Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:49 am Let clarify SEE and KNOW.

When I said SEE, it is just seeing the whole path. At this time when one hear true dhamma, their mind needs to be in Jhana briefly (See MN 56 even 1st jhana will do). Whether one can maintain it or not, this is different story. Most stream enterer and once returner can't maintain jhana because their samma samadhi hasn't been fully developed.
mn56
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN56.html wrote:Then the Blessed One gave a graduated talk to Upāli the householder, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & defilement in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then—when he knew that Upāli the householder was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—he proclaimed to him the distinctive teaching of the Awakened Ones: stress, origination, cessation, path. Just as a white cloth with stains removed would rightly take dye, in the same way there arose to Upāli the householder, in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then—having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning—Upāli the householder gained fearlessness and was independent of others with regard to the Teacher’s message.
from there "—when he knew that Upāli the householder was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—"

could be the renunciate equanimity
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And in this context what are the six kinds of renunciate equanimity?
When you’ve understood the impermanence of sights—their perishing, fading away, and cessation—equanimity arises as you truly understand through right understanding that both formerly and now all those sights are impermanent, suffering, and perishable.
given the mn56 was about deeds, then the renunciate equanimity is when you have overcome your limitations and results of the deeds,
in contrast to foolish person,
wrote:..a foolish ordinary person who has not overcome their limitations and the results of deeds, and is blind to the drawbacks.
you can say it is different sutta and i should stick to mn56 you presented, but then should i blindly believe you?
i take additional lesson on equanimity
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:There remains only equanimity, pure, bright, pliable, workable, and radiant.
Athāparaṁ upekkhāyeva avasissati parisuddhā pariyodātā mudu ca kammaññā ca pabhassarā ca.
i don't know if it is the brief jhana what is needed to overcome limitations of the kamma and its results. Buddha brought examples, similes about kamma, the mental kamma being the greatest(perhaps in a way that you can mentally go further than bodily) among verbal and bodily.
If i follow my guess or narrative then next what he does is arupa dimensions and then can do jhana. In this scheme arupa is done first after contact is ceased.
If you take mn44 then you see also that the cessation of perception is first described, then later in sutta it is jhana described.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:49 am But if you have micha samadhi, that can help as well. However if one attain micha samadhi, usually they will think they have reached Nibbana and doesn't want to hear true dhamma. So it can be dangerous as well. 2 side of knife, can be dangerous.
the sect, householder Upali was following didn't believe(nor have faith) there is rapture and bliss born of concentration, 2nd jhana. They therefore don't hear about anything higher than mind being occupied with the sight(which is basis for happiness, sadness..).
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by Alex123 »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:53 pm I’ve heard some conflicting opinions on this

Are the jhanas necessary for stream entry? Are there differing opinions on this?
I've heard that somewhere in Vinaya it tells a story about assasins hired to kill the Buddha, but the Buddha not only managed to talk them against that, he led some of them to Stream-Entry. Considering how non-Buddhist assassins would most likely not engage in meditation, and break at least one precept for their profession... It does seem that for *some* people who meet the Buddha in person, Jhana (and long time perfection of Sila) is not required. There are also other stories in the suttas, including the Sal trees story that appear to suggest that right view comes from understanding rather than brute force of Samadhi.

And of course it can be argued that the actual moment of Awakening is a sort of Jhana moment so in any case all 8 path factors converge at that exact moment.


However, there is a difference between "minimum" and "recommended" requirements. What works for some, might not be enough for others. I recommend as much Sila as possible, as much samadhi as you can, and as much understanding as possible.

IMHO.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 4:52 pm mn56
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN56.html wrote:Then the Blessed One gave a graduated talk to Upāli the householder, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & defilement in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then—when he knew that Upāli the householder was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—he proclaimed to him the distinctive teaching of the Awakened Ones: stress, origination, cessation, path. Just as a white cloth with stains removed would rightly take dye, in the same way there arose to Upāli the householder, in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then—having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning—Upāli the householder gained fearlessness and was independent of others with regard to the Teacher’s message.
from there "—when he knew that Upāli the householder was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—"
The key is this. Learn and practice this before try to understand 4NT. Then find the ariya.
- Talk on giving, --> check which Sutta, don't hear from others who didn't refer from Sutta
- a talk on virtue,
- a talk on heaven;
- he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & influences in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation

Most people didn't know the above and try to understand 4NT. It is impossible.
you wrote: could be the renunciate equanimity
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And in this context what are the six kinds of renunciate equanimity?
When you’ve understood the impermanence of sights—their perishing, fading away, and cessation—equanimity arises as you truly understand through right understanding that both formerly and now all those sights are impermanent, suffering, and perishable.
given the mn56 was about deeds, then the renunciate equanimity is when you have overcome your limitations and results of the deeds,
in contrast to foolish person,
1st jhana also has upekkha (look within, which people translate equanimity) even a little. The main object is vitakka vicara at 1st jhana. At this time, mind is free from 5 senses, because you turn it back to inside away from 5 senses.

If you look at how buddha teach Kamma, it is very different from current teaching from majority of the monks. You don't need to know the whole mechanic, just the overall picture is enough. Kamma is basically when there is influence from outside through your senses, the mind interpretate it whether to act or not, if you act with good thoughts, then you create Kusala. But if you act with bad thoughts, then you create Akusala. That's it for now. Therefore, always think first before act with speech or body. Is it for good of you and others?

But if you have the wisdom, and mind is always calm (in jhana) and indifference to the influences and on the N8FPath, there won't be any kamma at all. Basically you cut off the root to propagate.
you wrote:
wrote:..a foolish ordinary person who has not overcome their limitations and the results of deeds, and is blind to the drawbacks.
you can say it is different sutta and i should stick to mn56 you presented, but then should i blindly believe you?
i take additional lesson on equanimity
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:There remains only equanimity, pure, bright, pliable, workable, and radiant.
Athāparaṁ upekkhāyeva avasissati parisuddhā pariyodātā mudu ca kammaññā ca pabhassarā ca.
No need to believe me. ONLY when you SEE yourself then you should believe. Without SEEING, there is NO USE. There won't be any confidence to walk the whole path. You are still having doubt.
you wrote: i don't know if it is the brief jhana what is needed to overcome limitations of the kamma and its results. Buddha brought examples, similes about kamma, the mental kamma being the greatest(perhaps in a way that you can mentally go further than bodily) among verbal and bodily.
If i follow my guess or narrative then next what he does is arupa dimensions and then can do jhana. In this scheme arupa is done first after contact is ceased.
If you take mn44 then you see also that the cessation of perception is first described, then later in sutta it is jhana described.
Stream enterer and once returner still generate kamma in sensual realm so they will comeback. But non returner, there is no more sensual realm kamma, so only Brahma realm. But arahant is completely off. See above.

First you think, then you act. Therefore always think first before acting, this way you always in good side. Don't act because of anger or hatred or greed or stupidity.

SEE MN 61 and SN 55.7 for Sila and how to purify body, speech and mind (to some extent).

Buddha basically explained the whole jhana in an actually steps of experience. But you need to calm down/purify/let go the whole things (action: speech, body and mind) to understand. If you are still impure, there is no way for you to understand the whole teaching. This is why jhana need to be maintained till end of life 24/7. Once you are pure from let go, you are in Jhana. There is no need to seek. :)

Even purifying the action (Sila) will reap the benefit here and now. No Need to wait till death to realize heavenly pleasure. People think they need to wait, they just don't know.

Arupa/ayatana can't be done without the whole samma samadhi. Although I'm not sure how outsider do it.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:20 am The key is this. Learn and practice this before try to understand 4NT. Then find the ariya.
- Talk on giving, --> check which Sutta, don't hear from others who didn't refer from Sutta
- a talk on virtue,
- a talk on heaven;
- he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & influences in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation

Most people didn't know the above and try to understand 4NT. It is impossible.
craving comes out once the mind is liberated from the senses. A'la craving for existence. In a way you say correct thing, but you mean someone whos mind is liberated from the senses(by wisdom) is already top notch arhant.
The renunciation is part of mundane 8fold path.
Joe.c wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:20 am 1st jhana also has upekkha (look within, which people translate equanimity) even a little. The main object is vitakka vicara at 1st jhana. At this time, mind is free from 5 senses, because you turn it back to inside away from 5 senses.
mind turned inward, i think it means the ajjhatta(jhana is personal/internal)
Vitakka technically is cetana, mind is directed towards the object(same object as sense organs have but different lineage) and vicara means the mind is occupied with it. And mind's object is a feeling, it knows feelings.
Joe.c wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:20 am If you look at how buddha teach Kamma, it is very different from current teaching from majority of the monks. You don't need to know the whole mechanic, just the overall picture is enough. Kamma is basically when there is influence from outside through your senses, the mind interpretate it whether to act or not, if you act with good thoughts, then you create Kusala. But if you act with bad thoughts, then you create Akusala. That's it for now. Therefore, always think first before act with speech or body. Is it for good of you and others?

But if you have the wisdom, and mind is always calm (in jhana) and indifference to the influences and on the N8FPath, there won't be any kamma at all. Basically you cut off the root to propagate.
kamma needs be experienced before awakening could occur. No bypassing. In some sense i believe sila training is what fulfills the kamma requirement.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:09 pm ...
I think you still need to listen and study true dhamma. Practice precepts.

Don't use your own comment to interpret. Wisdom needs to come from practice. Not from reading or assumption.

Nowadays, people assume/intepret wrong. Always has an open mind, and ready to say you are wrong and move on to improve till completely free.

Vitakka is not cetana. Cetana already decide. In Buddha teaching, you stop the action of planning until it is completely go away from it.

No cetana = no kamma
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Microdose
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by Microdose »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:53 pm I’ve heard some conflicting opinions on this

Are the jhanas necessary for stream entry? Are there differing opinions on this?

I am also curious if anyone can help me better understand the relationship between the jhana factors and suppression of the five hindrances.

It is my understanding that each jhana factor suppresses a certain hindrance. Is this suppression total eradication or just temporary?
There are many different opinions on the relationship between jhanas and stream entry. Some say it is necessary to experience jhanas in order to reach stream entry, while others claim it is not necessary.

In terms of the relationship between jhana factors and the five hindrances, it is believed that the jhana factors suppress the hindrances while they are experienced. However, it is unclear to what extent they can eliminate the hindrances, as some people may experience temporary suppression while others may experience longer-term effects. Ultimately, the individual must decide what works best for them with their own practice.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:22 am I think you still need to listen and study true dhamma. Practice precepts.
I think so too.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:03 pm You're getting wrong ideas from Vism. and LBT Theravada.
The whole 5 jhāna factor matched up with a perfect soul mate in one of the 5 hindrances is idiotic and corrupt, doesn't come from the suttas.
Even in the Vism. where it talks about that, Buddhaghosa claims that hindrance soul mate matching comes from one of the KN treatises, and the translator Nanamoli adds a footnote ("no it doesn't"), meaning he can't find it in KN where Buddhaghosa says it comes from.
Found it on abhidhamma
abhidhamma by Dr Tin Mon Mehm pdf 57 wrote:Now the five factors of jhàna are being developed slowly.
The initial application (vitakka) directs the mind towards the object
(earth-circle); it temporarily inhibits sloth and torpor. Sustained
application (vicàra) sustains the mind on the object by examining
the object again and again; it temporarily inhabits sceptical doubt
(vicikicchà).
Pãti develops joy or pleasurable interest in the object; it
temporarily inhibits illwill. Pãti is also a precursor of sukha
(pleasant feeling). Pãti creates an interest in the subject while
sukha enables one to enjoy the object. Sukha holds the mind to
stay longer on the object by its bliss; it temporarily drives away
restlessness and remorse.
Ekaggatà gathers the citta and its concomitants on the object
to reach the state of one-pointedness; it temporarily inhibits
sensual desire.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by Noble Sangha »

Microdose wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:59 am
Are the jhanas necessary for stream entry? Are there differing opinions on this?

I am also curious if anyone can help me better understand the relationship between the jhana factors and suppression of the five hindrances.

There are many different opinions on the relationship between jhanas and stream entry. Some say it is necessary to experience jhanas in order to reach stream entry, while others claim it is not necessary.

In terms of the relationship between jhana factors and the five hindrances, it is believed that the jhana factors suppress the hindrances while they are experienced. However, it is unclear to what extent they can eliminate the hindrances, as some people may experience temporary suppression while others may experience longer-term effects. Ultimately, the individual must decide what works best for them with their own practice.
I hope this will help to clarify this topic . . .

Based on Abhidhamma analysis, there's no citta vithi's that goes through jhana's then to magga phala in the "same citta vithi". Jhana and magga phala citta vithi’s happens in 2 different thought moments and not in the same one.

BUT one can attain magga phala through anariya jhana's based on 89 (121) types of citta's analysis.

This is based on my understanding and what makes sense to me, but before / at the moment of attaining magga phala and higher attainments, the suppression or elimination of the 5 hindrances (panca nivarana) is needed. What tremendously helps with the process is to “vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”. The common / popular English translation we have today is “And so, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities.”

Another way to understand what “secluded from sensual pleasure and unskilful qualities” is to "refrain or direct" one's thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure (kama raga) and unskillful / unwholesome qualities (akusala).

One can be surrounded by sensual pleasures, but one's mind doesn't have to partake in them. But it would be much easier if one is shielded / protected from possible triggers of sensual pleasures and disturbances.

If one is mostly absorb / sincere in their learning when reading or listening to the dhamma, but most importantly from the right, correct dhamma teachings / teachers. That would be enough / sufficient to help direct one’s thoughts away from sensual pleasure and unwholesome qualities (akusala), suppressing the five hindrances.

I believe one of the intended purposes of sutta's and listening to the correct dhamma is that it can help one to suppress and later to eliminate / eradicate the 5 hindrances.

Below, I c&p a sentence from what Venerable Lal had taught. It’s what makes sense to me through my own experience, discernment and research from the sutta’s.

- “Some argue that Sacca Vibhanga Sutta (MN 141) states that Sammā Samādhi is attained ONLY WHEN one attains the first four jhānās. This is not correct. All one needs to do is to get to the vicinity of to ANY of those four jhānās (thus one could get to the upcāra samādhi for the first jhāna, for example), and attain magga phala from there.”

From the Sacca Vibhanga Sutta and other sutta’s that’s related to jhana’s, “upasampajja viharati” is one of the key words that’s commonly / popularly translated and understood as “attain / enter/ remain” in first, second jhana, etc . . . But I don’t agree with such translation. To me, what Lal mentions about the meaning of the words “upasampajja viharati” “one stays close to any one of those jhāna (“upa” means close or in the vicinity)” makes more sense than the translations “attain / enter / remain”.

Why I brought all this up is because my understanding is that one only needs to be “in the vicinity” of jhana’s and not necessarily “need to attain, enter and remain” in jhana’s in order to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala.

From my understanding, the vicinity of jhana’s is = vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi or when one is "refraining / directing" one’s thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure and unskillful / unwholesome qualities”. The more practice and longer one can “vivicceva kamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi” or "refraining / directing" one’s thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure and unskillful / unwholesome qualities”. The more one will get closer to the vicinity, “attaining / entering and remaining” or fully absorb in jhana’s.

C&P from Venerable Lal teachings relating to what was mentioned at the beginning of the post. (Might get technical for those that are unfamiliar with the Abhidhamma).

- "There are 54 citta that could arise mainly in the kāmavacara realms; 15 and 12 citta respectively mainly arise in the rupāvacara and arupāvacara realms respectively. The total so far is 81 citta.
- Without going through any jhāna at all, there are 8 citta associated with the attainment of the four stages of Nibbāna (4 magga citta and 4 phala citta). Then the total number of citta is 81 +8 = 89.
- Now, one can attain each magga phala from the vicinity of 5 rupāvacara jhāna. For example, the Arahanthood can be reached from the vicinity of each of those five jhāna. Thus in this case, the total number of citta becomes 81 + 40 = 121.
- It is to be noted that the five jhāna in the terminology of Abhidhamma are the same as 4 jhāna in the terminology of the suttā; the first jhāna in sutta terminology is split into two in Abhidhamma".

Basically what all this means is that one can attain magga phala with or without jhana's.

I hope this puts an end to the debate / disputes whether jhana’s are needed or not to attain the sotapanna stage or higher attainments.

To me, there are several strong pieces of evidence from the Tipitaka that supports one does not need to “attain, enter and remain” any jhana’s in order to attain the Sotapanna stage or magga phala.

Some of these pieces of evidence from the Tipitaka are:

I’m sure everyone is already familiar with the story of Angulimala. I don't believe I need to say more about this.

Minister Santati

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=142

Alavaka Yaksa

https://suttacentral.net/sn10.12/en/suj ... ript=latin

Bahiya

"Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping".
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/suja ... ript=latin

I remembered learning / hearing that there was an individual (don’t exactly remember whom or what sutta) that was not educated and handled / worked with urine and feces. As well I believe it was the Buddha that mentioned / said a few words / sentence to the person and they attained magga phala shortly after.

Upatissa (Venerable Sariputta) after hearing / listening to the discourse / verse by Venerable Assaji became a Sotapanna.

“Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
Tesaṃ hētuṃ tathāgato āha;
Tesañca yo nirōdhō,
Evaṃvādī mahāsamaṇō”

Later this verse was repeated by Upatissa (Venerable Sariputta) to Kolita (Venerable Moggallana) who attained the Sotapanna stage.

And then there are pannavimutti Arahants which I’m not even going to get into here.

If someone were to try convince or teach me that one needs jhana’s to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala. First they would need to convince me what I just brought up from the sutta’s / tipitaka / teachings that the individuals mentioned were “fully entered, absorbed and remained” in jhana’s while listening to the dhamma teachings and then attained magga phala. I wish them good luck with that . . .
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by auto »

Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:40 pm I remembered learning / hearing that there was an individual (don’t exactly remember whom or what sutta) that was not educated and handled / worked with urine and feces. As well I believe it was the Buddha that mentioned / said a few words / sentence to the person and they attained magga phala shortly after.
this?
https://suttacentral.net/an10.99/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Suppose there was a little baby boy playing in his own urine and feces.
Seyyathāpi, upāli, daharo kumāro mando uttānaseyyako sakena muttakarīsena kīḷati.
What do you think, Upāli?
Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, upāli,
Isn’t that a totally foolish game?”
nanvāyaṁ kevalā paripūrā bālakhiḍḍā”ti?

“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṁ, bhante”.
Microdose
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Re: Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

Post by Microdose »

Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:40 pm
Microdose wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:59 am
Are the jhanas necessary for stream entry? Are there differing opinions on this?

I am also curious if anyone can help me better understand the relationship between the jhana factors and suppression of the five hindrances.

There are many different opinions on the relationship between jhanas and stream entry. Some say it is necessary to experience jhanas in order to reach stream entry, while others claim it is not necessary.

In terms of the relationship between jhana factors and the five hindrances, it is believed that the jhana factors suppress the hindrances while they are experienced. However, it is unclear to what extent they can eliminate the hindrances, as some people may experience temporary suppression while others may experience longer-term effects. Ultimately, the individual must decide what works best for them with their own practice.
I hope this will help to clarify this topic . . .

Based on Abhidhamma analysis, there's no citta vithi's that goes through jhana's then to magga phala in the "same citta vithi". Jhana and magga phala citta vithi’s happens in 2 different thought moments and not in the same one.

BUT one can attain magga phala through anariya jhana's based on 89 (121) types of citta's analysis.

This is based on my understanding and what makes sense to me, but before / at the moment of attaining magga phala and higher attainments, the suppression or elimination of the 5 hindrances (panca nivarana) is needed. What tremendously helps with the process is to “vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”. The common / popular English translation we have today is “And so, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities.”

Another way to understand what “secluded from sensual pleasure and unskilful qualities” is to "refrain or direct" one's thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure (kama raga) and unskillful / unwholesome qualities (akusala).

One can be surrounded by sensual pleasures, but one's mind doesn't have to partake in them. But it would be much easier if one is shielded / protected from possible triggers of sensual pleasures and disturbances.

If one is mostly absorb / sincere in their learning when reading or listening to the dhamma, but most importantly from the right, correct dhamma teachings / teachers. That would be enough / sufficient to help direct one’s thoughts away from sensual pleasure and unwholesome qualities (akusala), suppressing the five hindrances.

I believe one of the intended purposes of sutta's and listening to the correct dhamma is that it can help one to suppress and later to eliminate / eradicate the 5 hindrances.

Below, I c&p a sentence from what Venerable Lal had taught. It’s what makes sense to me through my own experience, discernment and research from the sutta’s.

- “Some argue that Sacca Vibhanga Sutta (MN 141) states that Sammā Samādhi is attained ONLY WHEN one attains the first four jhānās. This is not correct. All one needs to do is to get to the vicinity of to ANY of those four jhānās (thus one could get to the upcāra samādhi for the first jhāna, for example), and attain magga phala from there.”

From the Sacca Vibhanga Sutta and other sutta’s that’s related to jhana’s, “upasampajja viharati” is one of the key words that’s commonly / popularly translated and understood as “attain / enter/ remain” in first, second jhana, etc . . . But I don’t agree with such translation. To me, what Lal mentions about the meaning of the words “upasampajja viharati” “one stays close to any one of those jhāna (“upa” means close or in the vicinity)” makes more sense than the translations “attain / enter / remain”.

Why I brought all this up is because my understanding is that one only needs to be “in the vicinity” of jhana’s and not necessarily “need to attain, enter and remain” in jhana’s in order to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala.

From my understanding, the vicinity of jhana’s is = vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi or when one is "refraining / directing" one’s thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure and unskillful / unwholesome qualities”. The more practice and longer one can “vivicceva kamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi” or "refraining / directing" one’s thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure and unskillful / unwholesome qualities”. The more one will get closer to the vicinity, “attaining / entering and remaining” or fully absorb in jhana’s.

C&P from Venerable Lal teachings relating to what was mentioned at the beginning of the post. (Might get technical for those that are unfamiliar with the Abhidhamma).

- "There are 54 citta that could arise mainly in the kāmavacara realms; 15 and 12 citta respectively mainly arise in the rupāvacara and arupāvacara realms respectively. The total so far is 81 citta.
- Without going through any jhāna at all, there are 8 citta associated with the attainment of the four stages of Nibbāna (4 magga citta and 4 phala citta). Then the total number of citta is 81 +8 = 89.
- Now, one can attain each magga phala from the vicinity of 5 rupāvacara jhāna. For example, the Arahanthood can be reached from the vicinity of each of those five jhāna. Thus in this case, the total number of citta becomes 81 + 40 = 121.
- It is to be noted that the five jhāna in the terminology of Abhidhamma are the same as 4 jhāna in the terminology of the suttā; the first jhāna in sutta terminology is split into two in Abhidhamma".

Basically what all this means is that one can attain magga phala with or without jhana's.

I hope this puts an end to the debate / disputes whether jhana’s are needed or not to attain the sotapanna stage or higher attainments.

To me, there are several strong pieces of evidence from the Tipitaka that supports one does not need to “attain, enter and remain” any jhana’s in order to attain the Sotapanna stage or magga phala.

Some of these pieces of evidence from the Tipitaka are:

I’m sure everyone is already familiar with the story of Angulimala. I don't believe I need to say more about this.

Minister Santati

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=142

Alavaka Yaksa

https://suttacentral.net/sn10.12/en/suj ... ript=latin

Bahiya

"Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping".
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/suja ... ript=latin

I remembered learning / hearing that there was an individual (don’t exactly remember whom or what sutta) that was not educated and handled / worked with urine and feces. As well I believe it was the Buddha that mentioned / said a few words / sentence to the person and they attained magga phala shortly after.

Upatissa (Venerable Sariputta) after hearing / listening to the discourse / verse by Venerable Assaji became a Sotapanna.

“Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
Tesaṃ hētuṃ tathāgato āha;
Tesañca yo nirōdhō,
Evaṃvādī mahāsamaṇō”

Later this verse was repeated by Upatissa (Venerable Sariputta) to Kolita (Venerable Moggallana) who attained the Sotapanna stage.

And then there are pannavimutti Arahants which I’m not even going to get into here.

If someone were to try convince or teach me that one needs jhana’s to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala. First they would need to convince me what I just brought up from the sutta’s / tipitaka / teachings that the individuals mentioned were “fully entered, absorbed and remained” in jhana’s while listening to the dhamma teachings and then attained magga phala. I wish them good luck with that . . .

Is this your experience
?
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