Microdose wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:59 am
Are the jhanas necessary for stream entry? Are there differing opinions on this?
I am also curious if anyone can help me better understand the relationship between the jhana factors and suppression of the five hindrances.
There are many different opinions on the relationship between jhanas and stream entry. Some say it is necessary to experience jhanas in order to reach stream entry, while others claim it is not necessary.
In terms of the relationship between jhana factors and the five hindrances, it is believed that the jhana factors suppress the hindrances while they are experienced. However, it is unclear to what extent they can eliminate the hindrances, as some people may experience temporary suppression while others may experience longer-term effects. Ultimately, the individual must decide what works best for them with their own practice.
I hope this will help to clarify this topic . . .
Based on Abhidhamma analysis, there's no citta vithi's that goes through jhana's then to magga phala in the "same citta vithi". Jhana and magga phala citta vithi’s happens in 2 different thought moments and not in the same one.
BUT one can attain magga phala through anariya jhana's based on 89 (121) types of citta's analysis.
This is based on my understanding and what makes sense to me, but before / at the moment of attaining magga phala and higher attainments, the suppression or elimination of the 5 hindrances (panca nivarana) is needed. What tremendously helps with the process is to “vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”. The common / popular English translation we have today is “And so, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities.”
Another way to understand what “secluded from sensual pleasure and unskilful qualities” is to "refrain or direct" one's thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure (kama raga) and unskillful / unwholesome qualities (akusala).
One can be surrounded by sensual pleasures, but one's mind doesn't have to partake in them. But it would be much easier if one is shielded / protected from possible triggers of sensual pleasures and disturbances.
If one is mostly absorb / sincere in their learning when reading or listening to the dhamma, but most importantly from the right, correct dhamma teachings / teachers. That would be enough / sufficient to help direct one’s thoughts away from sensual pleasure and unwholesome qualities (akusala), suppressing the five hindrances.
I believe one of the intended purposes of sutta's and listening to the correct dhamma is that it can help one to suppress and later to eliminate / eradicate the 5 hindrances.
Below, I c&p a sentence from what Venerable Lal had taught. It’s what makes sense to me through my own experience, discernment and research from the sutta’s.
- “Some argue that Sacca Vibhanga Sutta (MN 141) states that Sammā Samādhi is attained ONLY WHEN one attains the first four jhānās. This is not correct. All one needs to do is to get to the vicinity of to ANY of those four jhānās (thus one could get to the upcāra samādhi for the first jhāna, for example), and attain magga phala from there.”
From the Sacca Vibhanga Sutta and other sutta’s that’s related to jhana’s, “upasampajja viharati” is one of the key words that’s commonly / popularly translated and understood as “attain / enter/ remain” in first, second jhana, etc . . . But I don’t agree with such translation. To me, what Lal mentions about the meaning of the words “upasampajja viharati” “one stays close to any one of those jhāna (“upa” means close or in the vicinity)” makes more sense than the translations “attain / enter / remain”.
Why I brought all this up is because my understanding is that one only needs to be “in the vicinity” of jhana’s and not necessarily “need to attain, enter and remain” in jhana’s in order to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala.
From my understanding, the vicinity of jhana’s is = vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi or when one is "refraining / directing" one’s thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure and unskillful / unwholesome qualities”. The more practice and longer one can “vivicceva kamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi” or "refraining / directing" one’s thoughts, speech and actions away from sensual pleasure and unskillful / unwholesome qualities”. The more one will get closer to the vicinity, “attaining / entering and remaining” or fully absorb in jhana’s.
C&P from Venerable Lal teachings relating to what was mentioned at the beginning of the post. (Might get technical for those that are unfamiliar with the Abhidhamma).
- "There are 54 citta that could arise mainly in the kāmavacara realms; 15 and 12 citta respectively mainly arise in the rupāvacara and arupāvacara realms respectively. The total so far is 81 citta.
- Without going through any jhāna at all, there are 8 citta associated with the attainment of the four stages of Nibbāna (4 magga citta and 4 phala citta). Then the total number of citta is 81 +8 = 89.
- Now, one can attain each magga phala from the vicinity of 5 rupāvacara jhāna. For example, the Arahanthood can be reached from the vicinity of each of those five jhāna. Thus in this case, the total number of citta becomes 81 + 40 = 121.
- It is to be noted that the five jhāna in the terminology of Abhidhamma are the same as 4 jhāna in the terminology of the suttā; the first jhāna in sutta terminology is split into two in Abhidhamma".
Basically what all this means is that one can attain magga phala with or without jhana's.
I hope this puts an end to the debate / disputes whether jhana’s are needed or not to attain the sotapanna stage or higher attainments.
To me, there are several strong pieces of evidence from the Tipitaka that supports one does not need to “attain, enter and remain” any jhana’s in order to attain the Sotapanna stage or magga phala.
Some of these pieces of evidence from the Tipitaka are:
I’m sure everyone is already familiar with the story of Angulimala. I don't believe I need to say more about this.
Minister Santati
https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=142
Alavaka Yaksa
https://suttacentral.net/sn10.12/en/suj ... ript=latin
Bahiya
"Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping".
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/suja ... ript=latin
I remembered learning / hearing that there was an individual (don’t exactly remember whom or what sutta) that was not educated and handled / worked with urine and feces. As well I believe it was the Buddha that mentioned / said a few words / sentence to the person and they attained magga phala shortly after.
Upatissa (Venerable Sariputta) after hearing / listening to the discourse / verse by Venerable Assaji became a Sotapanna.
“Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
Tesaṃ hētuṃ tathāgato āha;
Tesañca yo nirōdhō,
Evaṃvādī mahāsamaṇō”
Later this verse was repeated by Upatissa (Venerable Sariputta) to Kolita (Venerable Moggallana) who attained the Sotapanna stage.
And then there are pannavimutti Arahants which I’m not even going to get into here.
If someone were to try convince or teach me that one needs jhana’s to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala. First they would need to convince me what I just brought up from the sutta’s / tipitaka / teachings that the individuals mentioned were “fully entered, absorbed and remained” in jhana’s while listening to the dhamma teachings and then attained magga phala. I wish them good luck with that . . .
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.
Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.